Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.

[bigfluffylemon]

Pietersen was a very good batsman BUT not a great one. Great batsmen can play slow left arm bowling.

KP actually averaged higher against left arm spin than any other type of dismissal
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... al_summary

[Arthur Crabtree]

Thanks bfl, I was going to look that up, I thought we'd get something like that.

The sla thing seemed to me more of an ODI issue. KP was mostly a good player of spin, and did better against MM and SKW than most England batters.

[backfootpunch]

i would say KP was a player of great innings not a great player

he started like a great player but flattered to deceive between 2009-2014, as his career went on the hundreds became less in quantity but somehow managed to increase in quality despite the brilliance of his early hundreds

between 2005-2008 KP made 15 hundreds in 45 test matches, which are the figures of a truly great player especially when you consider that england werent very good in most of this period

but after the captaincy debacle he lost his consistency and made just the 8 hundreds in his remaining 59 test matches which isnt great, i didnt realise this until looking at the stats, i suppose the rise of bell, cook, trott and prior as top class players hid the fact that KP wasnt performing as well as a player of his talent should

he was still able to play great innings post 2008 but was no longer a great player

still he will be a massive loss and since 2005 the thing i have most looked forward to during any england match is KP striding to the crease, and the hundreds he made against south africa, sri lanka and india in recent years are three of the best i have seen and perhaps will ever see

[Arthur Crabtree]

I think KP still averaged over 50 up to just over a year ago. His numbers are down in the last two years, but the other batters haven't been hiding this- their stats are down too, KP is second top run maker going back to UAE only just behind Cook. Everyone has been suffering. Even the bowlers. Even the fielding. To me that suggested we needed to look at the head coach. Young players were struggling after promising starts, players who should be at their peak were fading.

I still stand by KP being a great England player. No more than that, but certainly no less. It's not like being a great Australian or West Indian, but he has still been one of our very best. Boycott used to refer to his record of going past 50 once every three innings as a badge of his consistency, which KP has matched. I suspect he might have done better latterly under a more sympathetic coach, and it would have been worthwhile giving him that opportunity.

[Robert]

I think KP still averaged over 50 up to just over a year ago. His numbers are down in the last two years, but the other batters haven't been hiding this- their stats are down too, KP is second top run maker going back to UAE only just behind Cook. Everyone has been suffering. Even the bowlers. Even the fielding. To me that suggested we needed to look at the head coach. Young players were struggling after promising starts, players who should be at their peak were fading.

I still stand by KP being a great England player. No more than that, but certainly no less. It's not like being a great Australian or West Indian, but he has still been one of our very best. Boycott used to refer to his record of going past 50 once every three innings as a badge of his consistency, which KP has matched. I suspect he might have done better latterly under a more sympathetic coach, and it would have been worthwhile giving him that opportunity.

You might want to consult cricinfo's list of cumulative averages - it basically dropped below 50 quite some time ago.

[Arthur Crabtree]

When I watched the rerun of KP's innings against SA at Headingley, his average flashed up just over 50.

Maybe it dropped down after he got out, and he got 12 in the second innings. But he was batting over 50 in that match.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Same during his innings in Mumbai, averaging 49.9 after the Test. So November 2012.

[bigfluffylemon]

I think KP still averaged over 50 up to just over a year ago. His numbers are down in the last two years, but the other batters haven't been hiding this- their stats are down too, KP is second top run maker going back to UAE only just behind Cook. Everyone has been suffering. Even the bowlers. Even the fielding. To me that suggested we needed to look at the head coach. Young players were struggling after promising starts, players who should be at their peak were fading.

I still stand by KP being a great England player. No more than that, but certainly no less. It's not like being a great Australian or West Indian, but he has still been one of our very best. Boycott used to refer to his record of going past 50 once every three innings as a badge of his consistency, which KP has matched. I suspect he might have done better latterly under a more sympathetic coach, and it would have been worthwhile giving him that opportunity.

Not only that, but KP has a better conversion rate of 50s to 100s than Geoff.

I'd have both in my post-war England side, without a doubt.

[Albondiga]

Nobody is saying that batsmen are “worse” now, but simply that their task is easier. With head protection, superior bats etc. in the modern era, this cannot be sensibly disputed.

Obviously, if it’s become easier for batsmen, the task for bowlers must have become more difficult, but where is the evidence for saying they are fitter and/or better now and have greater variation?

Ground fielding, if not catching, is generally better now than it used to be.

D/L People are doing to quote figures and make comparisons. That's what this forum is about and people have different experiences. One of the reasons given for batting being difficult now is that the bowlers are fitter than they were. I wonder what the likes of Fred Trueman , Len Coldwell , Harold Jackson , Ossie Wheatley, Brian Statham , Trevor Bailey, David Halfyard , Peter Loader Tom Cartwright all regularly bowled more than 1000 first class overs a season (not to mention Derek Shackleton who bowled nearly 2000 some seasons) would have to say about it ??? - Tell me who could manage half that now ??? Even spinners don't bowl that many overs in a season in today's cricket.

[Gingerfinch]

There is more international cricket these days, albondiga. Different era. Not sure about fitness, but bowlers I would have thought are a little quicker, and have more tricks up their sleeves.

[D/L]

Well written, both articles, Arthur.

D/L, your abuse of KP is getting a little tiresome. We get it, you hate him.

Answer me this, though: if the task of batsmen is so much easier now, how come no-one has averaged over 50 for England since the 1950's? Has England really produced not a single batsman in 50 years as good as any they produced in the first half of the century? And if batting is so much easier now, how come the batting averages for teams have shown very little difference by decade? Statistically speaking the 1940s were the easiest era to bat in:
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ;type=team

England has statistically been one of the harder places to bat since the war
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ;view=host

Yet KP averages over 50 in England in that time.

It seems hard to justify an assertion that on the field he is not one of England's finest batsmen since the war.

There is a difference between abuse and justifiable criticism which, it seems, some are unable to understand. If you find my comments tiresome, then tough.

There are lies, damned lies and statistics, but it is a no-brainer, that with protective gear, better bats etc., batting has become easier.

Of course, it can be said that Pietersen is “one of” England’s finest batsman but that is meaningless with no idea of the number we are considering.

[D/L]

...Boycott used to refer to his record of going past 50 once every three innings as a badge of his consistency, which KP has matched...

Almost matched, to be accurate, although I don't think Boycott ever faced Bangladesh or the type of bowling recently served up by the West Indies. Pietersen played 28 innings against these two teams.

[D/L]

Not only that, but KP has a better conversion rate of 50s to 100s than Geoff.

I'd have both in my post-war England side, without a doubt.

If this is a daft statistic competition, Boycott was not out 23 times to Pietersen’s 8 and Boycott opened the batting.

[Gingerfinch]

...Boycott used to refer to his record of going past 50 once every three innings as a badge of his consistency, which KP has matched...

Almost matched, to be accurate, although I don't think Boycott ever faced Bangladesh or the type of bowling recently served up by the West Indies. Pietersen played 28 innings against these two teams.

But Pakistan were not as good, definitely in the bowling department anyway. India? Not sure, tbh. Even the Kiwi's have a good pace attack these days. Difficult to compare a solid oening bat, and a strokeplaying number four. Comparing Boycott to Cook would be better.

[D/L]

Nobody is saying that batsmen are “worse” now, but simply that their task is easier. With head protection, superior bats etc. in the modern era, this cannot be sensibly disputed.

Obviously, if it’s become easier for batsmen, the task for bowlers must have become more difficult, but where is the evidence for saying they are fitter and/or better now and have greater variation?

Ground fielding, if not catching, is generally better now than it used to be.

D/L People are doing to quote figures and make comparisons. That's what this forum is about and people have different experiences. One of the reasons given for batting being difficult now is that the bowlers are fitter than they were. I wonder what the likes of Fred Trueman , Len Coldwell , Harold Jackson , Ossie Wheatley, Brian Statham , Trevor Bailey, David Halfyard , Peter Loader Tom Cartwright all regularly bowled more than 1000 first class overs a season (not to mention Derek Shackleton who bowled nearly 2000 some seasons) would have to say about it ??? - Tell me who could manage half that now ??? Even spinners don't bowl that many overs in a season in today's cricket.

Excellent points, well made, Albondiga.

Statistics should carry a caveat and it helps to be mindful of how they can be affected by how things change over the years.