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Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:35 pmby Arthur Crabtree
He had a bad start as well. To be fair, he played Warne better than most.
Only players to have scored more than two tons against WI. and average over 40 between 1976-1990: Viswanath (3 tons, 62 average), Gavaskar (9/59), Crowe (3/45), Vengsarker (6/44), Gooch (4/42).
Some who didn't, Gower (1 ton/33 average), Miandad (2/35), Botham (0/21).
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:39 pmby Gingerfinch
Boon must have been after 1990
Forgot about Sunny. His record was a little deceiving, as he scored a lot of runs against the weaker of the windies attacks.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:42 pmby Arthur Crabtree
In this period, Boon scored one hundred and averaged 38. Waugh no hundreds averaging 41.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:45 pmby Gingerfinch
Boon only averaged 41 from 1990 to 1996 against the windies, so not as good as I thought.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 3:55 pmby Arthur Crabtree
I went to 1990, but Walsh and Ambrose were going after that, and Marshall played for a few more years. But they didn't seem quite as formidable. For starters, England started to win Test against them.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:00 pmby Gingerfinch
Arthur Crabtree wrote:I went to 1990, but Walsh and Ambrose were going after that, and Marshall played for a few more years. But they didn't seem quite as formidable. For starters, England started to win Test against them.
Marshall was definitely nearing the end of his career. But Ambrose, Walsh, and for a couple of years Bishop, were nearing their peak mid 90's time. Greenidge, Haynes, Dujon, and Richards were also on their last legs. Some big names to replace, although a certain BC Lara was around.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:35 pmby Arthur Crabtree
Bishop played on with injuries for a bit. Maybe go to 95 then, after which his results started to suffer, and WI lost to Waugh's Australia.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:45 pmby Arthur Crabtree
Starting before WI beat England in 76, until before they lost to Australia in 95, you can add Robin Smith (3/45) by the previous criteria. But Gooch improves to 5/45. And we can add Mark Taylor and Dean Jones to the failures.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:40 pmby D/L
Arthur Crabtree wrote:So KP has done well against ATGs like McGrath, Warne, Murali, Steyn, against mystery spin, and very fast bowlers like Lee, Shoaib, Johnson... but may not have done well against random greats of the past...
How many of Pietersen's more unconventional shots would he have dared play without head protection and how many runs would have gone to the boundary off a mishit shot with a bat that wasn't nearly all mddle?
I wonder what Bradman's average would have been with those advantages.
Even simply comparing Pietersen with his contemporaries, somewhere between "good" and "very good" seems a fair verdict. "Great"? Never.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:05 pmby greyblazer
Arthur Crabtree wrote:So KP has done well against ATGs like McGrath, Warne, Murali, Steyn, against mystery spin, and very fast bowlers like Lee, Shoaib, Johnson... but may not have done well against random greats of the past. Maybe SRT would have done poorly against SF Barnes. Maybe Lara would have been undone by Lindwall and Miller.
We've established that he's consistent (a fifty every three innings), doesn't throw it away (one of he best ever conversion rates) with a good average (more or less equal best for 50 years) and longevity (among our top run scorers). But now he might have struggled against an attack from the past. Or (like every batter who's ever breathed) might not do as well against the very best bowlers.
I obviously have sympathy for KP. And this demonstrates why.
Actually KP tended to do better against bowlers with pedigree rather than average or ordinary ones. One of his uniqueness. Anyone who questions his commitment or technique should watch a video of him standing up to Shoaib at F'bad. More brutal than whatever you saw in the Ashes. Red-lightning speed and frightening. For just sheer courage that knock of 42 at F'bad stands out like a treasured gem as Shoaib wanted to bulldoze him after he smashed Shoaib for a six on the front foot in the first innings.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:08 pmby greyblazer
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Bishop played on with injuries for a bit. Maybe go to 95 then, after which his results started to suffer, and WI lost to Waugh's Australia.
If you count 1976 to 1995 Mark Waugh had some success against WI. In particular the 1991 series when he averaged 60 against Walsh, Amby, Patterson and Marshall.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:18 pmby greyblazer
Dr Robert wrote:greyblazer wrote:Not saying KP is an all time great which he isn't but how many could overcome the Windies foursome fearsome? Maybe one? Border?
Don't forget Allan Lamb
Those four? I'm not sure. Actually Roberts, Holding, Marshall and Garner hardly played together. The underrated Mohinder Amarnath pulled and hooked his way to success against those four quicks before the Windies bowlers took revenge by making him feel like Chris Martin when they toured India. I believe Border too stood up to those four or perhaps one of them was missing in the early 80s.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:41 pmby Gingerfinch
greyblazer wrote:Dr Robert wrote:greyblazer wrote:Not saying KP is an all time great which he isn't but how many could overcome the Windies foursome fearsome? Maybe one? Border?
Don't forget Allan Lamb
Those four? I'm not sure. Actually Roberts, Holding, Marshall and Garner hardly played together. The underrated Mohinder Amarnath pulled and hooked his way to success against those four quicks before the Windies bowlers took revenge by making him feel like Chris Martin when they toured India. I believe Border too stood up to those four or perhaps one of them was missing in the early 80s.
You're right, doubt Lamb faced Roberts in a test. Border scored a few in 83ish, including a 98no and 100no in one match. Those four quicks could have been playing in that match.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:28 pmby Robert
Arthur Crabtree wrote:So KP has done well against ATGs like McGrath, Warne, Murali, Steyn, against mystery spin, and very fast bowlers like Lee, Shoaib, Johnson... but may not have done well against random greats of the past. Maybe SRT would have done poorly against SF Barnes. Maybe Lara would have been undone by Lindwall and Miller.
We've established that he's consistent (a fifty every three innings), doesn't throw it away (one of he best ever conversion rates) with a good average (more or less equal best for 50 years) and longevity (among our top run scorers). But now he might have struggled against an attack from the past. Or (like every batter who's ever breathed) might not do as well against the very best bowlers.
I obviously have sympathy for KP. And this demonstrates why.
He was poor in tests against Ajmal and faded against Murali after a brilliant start. He didn't exactly shine against Johnson either.
Re: Kevin Pietersen: A Great England Cricketer.
Posted:
Tue Feb 18, 2014 8:46 pmby DiligentDefence
A very, very good player, certainly, but not to my mind an all time great. The desire to dominate was too often his downfall. Having got the field pushed back he seemed unwilling just to milk the bowlers.