Like a Phoenix from the Ashes: England fall, Giles rises

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Like a Phoenix from the Ashes: England fall, Giles rises

Postby braveneutral » Tue Apr 01, 2014 12:11 am

No pun intended but it isn't bad.

So as England reach a new depth in their relatively recent history, what faces the probable new appointment of England Cricketing Tsar Ashley Giles? (Tsar - King of Spin)

Regardless of whether Giles is appointed, a task faces whoever does land the top job.

Whilst some things have happened which we all know about, team England will eventually have to move on.

So for me, without becoming a twin of all of the other threads out there, I would like to look at those challenges and examine what they are. My list is by no means exhaustive, correct or in any particular order. Just the musings of an idiot.

1. What direction does the team take? By this I mean what is the focus in regards to format? Tests should still be the priority but if increasingly the short stuff brings in all of the money then what strategy can be taken to also deliver in these? What do you work on sorting out first? How do you improve standards and deliver consistently?

2. Who leads this team? Was 3 captains, 3 formats the right way (before)? Does this work? Are there better candidates. More broadly, what does the role entail? Towing the party line or actually leading? Naming and shaming, showing character etc.

3. Performance of key players. Are they under-performing? Probably. Why? Are there better options out there? What does the future look like? How do new players become integrated? Do they start in one format regardless of skill set or should they be focused on certain disciplines in certain fields?

I am sure that there is more.
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I suppose.

At times.

Re: Like a Phoenix from the Ashes: England fall, Giles rises

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:22 am

All the posts have gone from this thread! I was intending to say that Sussex's post was very interesting, but it allows a problem to endure that was obvious under Flower. Which is that it allows the captain insufficient freedom, and encourages compliance and discourages initiative. The responsibility for the team should at least be as much the domain of the skipper as the coach. Under Vaughan, this was the case. He had final decision over what went on on the pitch, and Fletcher was a mentor. It may be that MPV was just the last good captain we had. But under Moores and Fletcher, we mostly just saw unimaginative adherence to prescribed plans. We need to give the captain a role and the opportunity to prevail.

I wonder if the ECB, with its aping of corporate methods, prefers ideologically, for a manager to to manage rather than a player to be given the freedom to use his imagination and talent?
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Re: Like a Phoenix from the Ashes: England fall, Giles rises

Postby mikesiva » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:29 pm

It's curious how important a team coach has become, and I'm not convinced that it's a change for the better....

Back in the days when the teams of Lloyd and Richards ruled the world, it was Lloyd and Richards who were in charge of the teams, not the coach. For example, when Tony Greig made his infamous "grovel" comment, it was Lloyd who entered the dressing room and, according to Greenidge, Lloyd said, "Guys, today I don't have to give the dressing room talk. That guy out there did it for me!"

It was Lloyd who always geed up his team, not the team coach. I'm not convinced that the game has changed so much that it's up to Otis Gibson or Ashley Giles to take all that authority away from the captain....
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Re: Like a Phoenix from the Ashes: England fall, Giles rises

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:40 pm

In the old days, it left too much for the captain to do. Atherton's mention of working with Illingworth illustrates that. Illy used to sunbathe and pick the team. Athers would have to coach, arrange practice, arrange meetings, etc. Reading Fletcher and Vaughan's books about their relationship suggests a good way of going about it, with the coach being a facilitator. Obviously the balance will be influenced by the quality of the captain.
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Re: Like a Phoenix from the Ashes: England fall, Giles rises

Postby Aidan11 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:43 pm

There has been quite a lot going on in that dressing room for a while now and I suspect we don't have the full story.

If all the trouble pointed to KP well he wasn't there for the T20 tournament when England finished bottom of their group below a minnow.

Something stinks and whatever it is, it needs to be flushed out.
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Re: Like a Phoenix from the Ashes: England fall, Giles rises

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:01 pm

Everyone who did well up until two years ago, tailed off after then. The new players who came in did well, then struggled.

The only part of the team that goes against the trend is the bowling that has held up with Swann, Anderson and Broad in Tests. There was the issue of the tall reserves, but these three held up ok, with a little decline probably due to them not getting any rest between innings because of the batting, and finally, the overall hopeless of the situation. And England handling Swann's injury poorly.

Why did we allow Broad to play in the T20WC with an injury. Or Anderson in the Ashes with a rib fracture? Why was Swann bowling so much at the beginning of the game he couldn't make it to the end?
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Re: Like a Phoenix from the Ashes: England fall, Giles rises

Postby Athertonian » Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:41 pm

Aidan11 wrote:There has been quite a lot going on in that dressing room for a while now and I suspect we don't have the full story.

If all the trouble pointed to KP well he wasn't there for the T20 tournament when England finished bottom of their group below a minnow.

Something stinks and whatever it is, it needs to be flushed out.

Definitely we haven't had the full story. You're right, it can't all be about KP, but some of it was. And whatever the problem, if it had been going on for a long time, wasn't going to suddenly sort itself out the moment he was sacked. The downward trajectory started before last summer's Ashes and in hindsight the 3-0 result papered over some cracks. Cook, Trott and Prior were out of form and didn't improve in the winter, and only Broad and Stokes emerged with any credit down under. The Ashes whitewash hit the team very hard, morale was very low. But the ODI-t20 squad (same for both formats) was a different one, with a different captain. Winning the ODI series and a couple of t20 games were fairly inconsequential in the grand scheme of things but at least more whitewashes were avoided.

We can't overlook the injury problem, starting in West Indies. Some injured players recovered and were back in the team but Stokes, Root and Wright went home. But the handling of the injury crisis was bizarre. Why was Bell called up if he was never going to be used? Well that was the original question, until Kieswetter and Woakes were also called up and neither of them got a game either. The impression was of a stubborn determination not to change the team under any circumstances, sticking with players like Bresnan and Dernbach who continued to underperform.

These are criticisms that Giles has to answer to. For a change, it wasn't the batting that let England down but the bowling and fielding. As captain, Stuart Broad has to take some responsibility.

With such an upheaval and downturn in England's fortunes over the last year or so (unconvincing v. NZ also) and the resignation of the coach who had helped build England into a formidable team since 2008 it would have been pretty optimistic to see an immediate change round, with or without KP. Just because KP was part of the Ashes whitewash doesn't mean the team would immediately start winning without him. Giles hasn't got a great record as limited overs coach and I’m not convinced he’s the right person to take over all the formats. But maybe he would blossom if given the responsibility. Who knows?
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