Shut your eyes and think of England.

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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat May 10, 2014 1:08 pm

DeltaAlpha wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:That's a minority view. Do you not think players should be picked on merit?

A minority view maybe, but that doesn't make it intrinsically wrong, unsound or even unreasonable.

Players should be picked on the value they add to the team, not solely on merit.


So as a successful England player and a huge run scorer, KP adds little value to the team because he fell out with the captain and the coach. I have some sympathy for Cook here, because it's difficult being the captain when the team is being demolished, and I can see that he might feel vulnerable to criticism. But I can also see that criticism is deserved. If Cook decided that fitness training at the end of a long tour of overwhelming failure, rather than KP's preferred review of skills, then maybe Pietersen had a point. If, as Broad says, KP agreed to field on the boundary at Cook's request, after Trott went home, as a preferred person to absorb crowd abuse, then can Downton reasonably regard KP as being disengaged on the field. He was told to stay on the outfield!

KP's value was his runs (given the coach didn't want to utilise his cricket brain, well above average in this side). If he didn't score enough, well why start with the top run scorer for us in the series; and second top scorer in the last two years?

What value did he lack? Every single person in the touring party has said he wasn't a decisive figure in the dressing room, apart from Cook, Prior, Tim, Rankin and Borthwick. I feel sure the last two is because they haven't been interviewed on the subject. The word 'value' doesn't really suggest anything to me here.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 1:20 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
DeltaAlpha wrote:Quite so, D/L; time to move on. Be nice to watch England without a peacock strutting up and down the pitch, though.

Some statements from people who feel the ECB have behaved reasonably seem to suggest that a personal dislike of KP is at least partly behind their view. Surely it is right that even those we don't like should be treated fairly?...

A "personal" dislike necessitates having met somebody and I doubt anyone on here has ever had the pleasure of making Pietersen's acquaintance.

On the other hand, ignoring the fact of the texts suggests something akin to adoration and, on the subject of fairness, it would not have been unfair had Pietersen been sacked at the time of the texts, an act of serious disloyalty to which he confessed.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby sussexpob » Sat May 10, 2014 1:20 pm

The word 'value' doesn't really suggest anything to me here.


It suggests that the argument has been steered to something that is purposefully non quantifiable.

He doesnt add value to the team, but when he tries to add input to his view on team process that is seen as disruptive? So what "value" is he suppose to add? Silence and conformity? In essence are we arguing that by "value" we actually mean something that has no value, therefore? Someone with value contributes nothing extra off the pitch?

Interesting principle. Value = the total sum of what you dont add!!!
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 1:22 pm

DeltaAlpha wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:That's a minority view. Do you not think players should be picked on merit?

A minority view maybe, but that doesn't make it intrinsically wrong, unsound or even unreasonable.

Players should be picked on the value they add to the team, not solely on merit.

I think the minority view (and a fairly deluded one) is the one that sees Pietersen as more sinned against than sinning.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat May 10, 2014 1:27 pm

Some value perhaps in his time spent with new players (as per Stokes, Root, Bairstow, many others) in helping them adapt to Tests. Or in coaching tail enders during the series to deal with the short ball. Ineffectually, as it turned out, but it hardly suggests disengagement.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 1:28 pm

sussexpob wrote:
The word 'value' doesn't really suggest anything to me here.

It suggests that the argument has been steered to something that is purposefully non quantifiable.

He doesnt add value to the team, but when he tries to add input to his view on team process that is seen as disruptive? So what "value" is he suppose to add? Silence and conformity? In essence are we arguing that by "value" we actually mean something that has no value, therefore? Someone with value contributes nothing extra off the pitch?

Interesting principle. Value = the total sum of what you dont add!!!

Yet more speculation and this time some semantics thrown in for good measure. We don't need to speculate about the texts and there can be little doubt over the disloyalty they revealed. Good enough reason for having sacked Pietersen at the time. Many comments made since are essentially waffle.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat May 10, 2014 1:33 pm

As I suggested before, KP is the scapegoat here. The issues regarding the winter tour go much further than that. The role of Ashley Giles and his subsequent sacking is another aspect I haven't touched on above. There are lots of issues. KP was treated the most egregiously. But it's also about a lack of competence as much as a lack of integrity.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 1:34 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Some value perhaps in his time spent with new players (as per Stokes, Root, Bairstow, many others) in helping them adapt to Tests. Or in coaching tail enders during the series to deal with the short ball. Ineffectually, as it turned out, but it hardly suggests disengagement.

If it actually happened, it may suggest atonement more than engagement.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby DeltaAlpha » Sat May 10, 2014 1:36 pm

I'm sorry if the meaning of the word "value" in relation to recruitment escapes some of you; I'll try to use simpler terms in future.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby sussexpob » Sat May 10, 2014 1:38 pm

DeltaAlpha wrote:I'm sorry if the meaning of the word "value" in relation to recruitment escapes some of you; I'll try to use simpler terms in future.


I see that you have made no attempt to explain what you mean by "value"? D/L didnt either, and had to resort to calling my point "waffle"....

Ill take that as a victory because I know, as well as you do, that you will struggle to come up with any cohesive argument to back the point
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 1:40 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:As I suggested before, KP is the scapegoat here. The issues regarding the winter tour go much further than that. The role of Ashley Giles and his subsequent sacking is another aspect I haven't touched on above. There are lots of issues. KP was treated the most egregiously. But it's also about a lack of competence as much as a lack of integrity.

Suggesting it before makes it no more credible and, anyway, how so when Pietersen is not the only casualty since the winter? Based upon his documented misbehaviours in the past, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that much of our troubles then were down to his presence. That is why we should give it time to see how things go now everyone involved with the team knows that Pietersen is firmly in the past.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 1:44 pm

sussexpob wrote:
DeltaAlpha wrote:I'm sorry if the meaning of the word "value" in relation to recruitment escapes some of you; I'll try to use simpler terms in future.


I see that you have made no attempt to explain what you mean by "value"? D/L didnt either, and had to resort to calling my point "waffle"....

Ill take that as a victory because I know, as well as you do, that you will struggle to come up with any cohesive argument to back the point

Not at all, DA. I was describing the repeated speculation about snippets of reported conversations amongst players as "waffle".

I would agree with the point I think you made about the overall contribution a player makes and I reckon, for much of the time, that Pietersen's was negative.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby sussexpob » Sat May 10, 2014 1:52 pm

D/L wrote:
sussexpob wrote:
DeltaAlpha wrote:I'm sorry if the meaning of the word "value" in relation to recruitment escapes some of you; I'll try to use simpler terms in future.


I see that you have made no attempt to explain what you mean by "value"? D/L didnt either, and had to resort to calling my point "waffle"....

Ill take that as a victory because I know, as well as you do, that you will struggle to come up with any cohesive argument to back the point

Not at all, DA. I was describing the repeated speculation about snippets of reported conversations amongst players as "waffle".

I would agree with the point I think you made about the overall contribution a player makes and I reckon, for much of the time, that Pietersen's was negative.


My question was.... what is a "positive value" that a player adds.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby sussexpob » Sat May 10, 2014 1:56 pm

As for the textgate saga. I find it quite interesting that its argued that KP breached the teams trust. While the texts were a negative, the main negative on the team was to leak it to the press and make a whole issue of it on the middle of a series. Someone, not KP, decided that punishing him in a public way was more of a concern then protecting the team in the middle of a very important and highly contested test series. THAT IS NOT SHOWING A UNITED,TEAM ETHIC!!!

I dont really know how forcing both the player in question, and the captain, through the embarrassment while a match was going on was in the interest of the team. Surely if someone got hold of this a sit down over a pint to thrash it out by all parties directly involved would have been in the interests of the team?

The same can be said of the dirty laundry England washed in public after Australia. That was nothing to do with KP, that was an engineered response that brought the national game to its knees.

That, imo, is just as disgraceful as the texts sent. Someone in the ECB, through player and coach leaks basically caused a stir that destroyed the end of that Ashes series, and spiraled it all out of control. So if you are talking of negative effects, thats a huge one.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 2:04 pm

sussexpob wrote:As for the textgate saga. I find it quite interesting that its argued that KP breached the teams trust. While the texts were a negative, the main negative on the team was to leak it to the press and make a whole issue of it on the middle of a series. Someone, not KP, decided that punishing him in a public way was more of a concern then protecting the team in the middle of a very important and highly contested test series.

I dont really know how forcing both the player in question, and the captain, through the embarrassment while a match was going on was in the interest of the team. Surely if someone got hold of this a sit down over a pint to thrash it out by all parties directly involved would have been in the interests of the team?

The same can be said of the dirty laundry England washed in public after Australia. That was nothing to do with KP, that was an engineered response that brought the national game to its knees.

That, imo, is just as disgraceful as the texts sent. Someone in the ECB, through player and coach leaks basically caused a stir that destroyed the end of that Ashes series, and spiraled it all out of control. So if you are talking of negative effects, thats a huge one.

It was too serious an incident to have been dealt with in that way. It required a disciplinary measure and that is what it got, though a very lenient one. The explanation for Pietersen not being selected after sending the texts had to be made, if only to stop the public speculating that he may have done something even worse.

It's OK to relieve one's angst on here over the whole affair but grabbing at snippets of reported conversations between players and saying the ECB could have handled things better is rather like a drowning man clutching at straws. It's inevitable that it will be countered with a more reasonable view of the Pietersen saga.
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