Shut your eyes and think of England.

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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby SaintPowelly » Sat May 10, 2014 2:09 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:KP's value was his runs (given the coach didn't want to utilise his cricket brain, well above average in this side).


above average cricket brain, you obviously haven't seen any of the IPL, he is the worst captain I have ever seen.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby hopeforthebest » Sat May 10, 2014 2:32 pm

I simply cannot understand why this matter of KP is still under discussion when it's clearly a done deal and one that KP seems satisfied with. Of course when the legal aspects allow the matter to become public KP and/or Morgan will enjoy themselves.

For me there is an aspect of this agreement which I find strange. If KP had behaved badly and he publicly stated that he did why was it necessary to buy out his contract instead of just claiming breach of contract. It does suggest the ECB were unsure they were on safe legal grounds.

My main problem however, is the fact that the ECB have effectively declared KP a 'pariah' in the eyes of the public and I can't believe that his behaviour was so dreadful to deserve such treatment.
Essentially out out the several hundred England qualified cricketers he is only player in history to be so treated and I find this outrageous.
Personally I don't think the performance of the England team will be adversely affected by his absence as his growing injury problems have clearly diminished his ability to play test cricket. I also think KP is rather satisfied with the arrangement that has given him the freedom to play where and for whom he wishes without a central contract around his neck.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby sussexpob » Sat May 10, 2014 2:40 pm

Re:Textgate D/L

The ECB never knew what the texts contained. The press only knew KP had text something to a Saffer player that had a "provocative potential"meaning, probably down to the Saffers leaking it, and the press actually at first reacted with some caution, with the "saffer leak" claimed to have been made to destabilize England in an important series.At this point Graeme Smith, the person believed to have leaked it, came out to essentially backtrack, claiming he hadnt leaked the issue, and that the texts themselves had no meaning or seriousness. The saffer coach went through a press conference backing this point, and saying the texts were nothing and to move on.

Instead of taking the "get out of jail free card" and issuing a statement that, as the South Africans had insisted they meant nothing, the matter was closed, the ECB instead dropped KP and publicly demanded him to tell them the exact statements on the text or never play again. Remember that GS and a few Saffers had said some pretty wrong things about KP leaving South Africa, so the scope for playing this off as a natural attack as revenge, or through that dislike, was a natural suspicion many had.

After the texts were disclosed they were leaked to the press, and they had a field day... the matter then went into overdrive, damaging all prospects of England getting back in the series, and damaging the dressing room.

The ECB chose to get KP and punish him in public rather than let the matter slide and be ignored. In doing so they detracted away from an important test match and let a negative impact befall the derssing room
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby SaintPowelly » Sat May 10, 2014 2:43 pm

hopeforthebest wrote:My main problem however, is the fact that the ECB have effectively declared KP a 'pariah' in the eyes of the public and I can't believe that his behaviour was so dreadful to deserve such treatment.


I think its more a case of a build up of several smaller incidents,rather than his actions in Australia being a solo event, he was probably on thin ice after the texting incident.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 3:12 pm

hopeforthebest wrote:...My main problem however, is the fact that the ECB have effectively declared KP a 'pariah' in the eyes of the public and I can't believe that his behaviour was so dreadful to deserve such treatment.

Nobody can be called anything "in the eyes of the public". The public see what they see and form their own opinions. If anything, Pietersen's behaviour over the texts was dealt with too leniently leading to resentment on both sides being allowed to fester.

hopeforthebest wrote:Essentially out out the several hundred England qualified cricketers he is only player in history to be so treated and I find this outrageous.

Pietersen is the only player in history that we know to have sent texts disloyal (to put it mildly - I think we know a couple of the names he used) to his captain to the opposing team.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 3:20 pm

sussexpob wrote:Re:Textgate D/L

The ECB never knew what the texts contained. The press only knew KP had text something to a Saffer player that had a "provocative potential"meaning, probably down to the Saffers leaking it, and the press actually at first reacted with some caution, with the "saffer leak" claimed to have been made to destabilize England in an important series.At this point Graeme Smith, the person believed to have leaked it, came out to essentially backtrack, claiming he hadnt leaked the issue, and that the texts themselves had no meaning or seriousness. The saffer coach went through a press conference backing this point, and saying the texts were nothing and to move on.

Instead of taking the "get out of jail free card" and issuing a statement that, as the South Africans had insisted they meant nothing, the matter was closed, the ECB instead dropped KP and publicly demanded him to tell them the exact statements on the text or never play again. Remember that GS and a few Saffers had said some pretty wrong things about KP leaving South Africa, so the scope for playing this off as a natural attack as revenge, or through that dislike, was a natural suspicion many had.

After the texts were disclosed they were leaked to the press, and they had a field day... the matter then went into overdrive, damaging all prospects of England getting back in the series, and damaging the dressing room.

The ECB chose to get KP and punish him in public rather than let the matter slide and be ignored. In doing so they detracted away from an important test match and let a negative impact befall the derssing room

The possibility of South African players looking for a way to destabilise the England team and what they had previously said about Pietersen are side issues. Having done the damage, there would have been no mileage in being perfectly frank at subsequent press conferences.

Having revealed the nature of his texts, the ECB had no option but to discipline Pietersen. It would have been impossible to keep the nature of the texts secret from the other players, some of whom may have known already, and to have brushed it all under the carpet would have sent out the wrong message to all the other players.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby sussexpob » Sat May 10, 2014 3:23 pm

The possibility of South African players looking for a way to destabilise the England team and what they had previously said about Pietersen are side issues


No, they were the issue. The ECB simply decided to create an issue where there was not one.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby sussexpob » Sat May 10, 2014 3:47 pm

I wonder what the Australia Team of the late 90's to 2007 would have been like with Flower in charge. The idea that even the most dominate of sides have to mesh and bond on a personal level is a nothing argument really. That side had strong characters in it, from your Langer's, who was Mr Australia and insisted on leading the team in campfire songs( who as a youngster was known to pin up people against dressing room walls), the religious Hayden (who once rammed David Boon;s head in the side of the tour bus), Warne ( who once stated he wouldnt go on a team building exercise unless he was allowed extra baggage for his cigarettes, who openly hated the coach, and had a poor relationship with his captain), Steve Waugh (who made his team go on pilgrimages to Gallipoli and other sites of Australian history to gain perspective), McGrath (who called said captain as a result a nerd), Gilchrist (the deep family man who never saw eye to eye with with the flashy Warne or Pup) , Ponting ( the guy who's favourite party trick before being captain was to get drunk and piss on people) , Katich (who tried to strangle Michael Clarke), Hussey (Mr Cricket himself, who ditched a team party to stay in the hotel, and upset the whole of his team), Pup (who no one seems to like, and who is labelled selfish by a few players)......

It seems there isnt many people that have gotten on, but as has been noted by many a journalist in Australia, you wouldnt care to notice when it comes to cricket matches....

Warne is a very interesting case. His antics in the 2006 boot camp have been said to have disjointed the team ethic, but they won that series 5-0, so what does that say about team ethics???
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat May 10, 2014 4:00 pm

SaintPowelly wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:KP's value was his runs (given the coach didn't want to utilise his cricket brain, well above average in this side).


above average cricket brain, you obviously haven't seen any of the IPL, he is the worst captain I have ever seen.


He was pretty good on the field when England captain.

Don't want to get involved in another go around textgate- we covered that in depth at the time, and prising out one aspect of it removed from its context is going to give a false picture. I'm more curious why we're all being a bit docile about what's happening between the ECB and the followers of the team. I'm wondering that after 15 years we're starting to accept their role as the owners of the game, and ours as customers.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat May 10, 2014 4:10 pm

hopeforthebest wrote:I simply cannot understand why this matter of KP is still under discussion when it's clearly a done deal and one that KP seems satisfied with. Of course when the legal aspects allow the matter to become public KP and/or Morgan will enjoy themselves.

For me there is an aspect of this agreement which I find strange. If KP had behaved badly and he publicly stated that he did why was it necessary to buy out his contract instead of just claiming breach of contract. It does suggest the ECB were unsure they were on safe legal grounds.

My main problem however, is the fact that the ECB have effectively declared KP a 'pariah' in the eyes of the public and I can't believe that his behaviour was so dreadful to deserve such treatment.
Essentially out out the several hundred England qualified cricketers he is only player in history to be so treated and I find this outrageous.
Personally I don't think the performance of the England team will be adversely affected by his absence as his growing injury problems have clearly diminished his ability to play test cricket. I also think KP is rather satisfied with the arrangement that has given him the freedom to play where and for whom he wishes without a central contract around his neck.


I agree. I think it's quite likely that KP, on being told he wouldn't play for England again, decided to walk away a free agent. I agree with everything else. But I'm not so sure this is all over. That will only happen if the ECB gives a justifiable reason why they acted as they did. Pietersen was the only item on the agenda for Downton, on a tour when the entire squad fell apart, the team lost every international, a player went home with stress, injured players were selected, the captain was made to look out of his depth, the bowling plans failed in so much as three seven footers made no impact, the batters posted the second worst returns ever (behind UAE against Pakistan), the fielding was horrendous... I only stopped there out of an awareness that this is probably a bit boring.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat May 10, 2014 4:17 pm

sussexpob wrote:
The possibility of South African players looking for a way to destabilise the England team and what they had previously said about Pietersen are side issues


No, they were the issue. The ECB simply decided to create an issue where there was not one.


The context that is lost is that the ECB had already leaked details of KP's contract negotiations in quite a provocative way. No one came well out of this apart from maybe Strauss, who behaved with a fair amount of dignity, but even he may have been negligent in being unaware of the upset between Pietersen and the fake twitterers, Anderson, Broad and Swann. All the people involved in this seem to have made peace with each other. The players anyway.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby Making_Splinters » Sat May 10, 2014 4:26 pm

Ultimately the ECB have come out very well from the last few years. They created a bogeyman which the press and a fair few on message boards are happy to bring out to excuse almost anything, despite none of the details ever being made public. They were allowed to find a cushy desk job for the man who failed to secure the future of English cricket. They've made scape goats to push the company captain's persona in the press, and ultimately nothing concrete seems to have been done about the rotten state of English cricket.

I have to agree with Arthur that ECB seems to have turned into nothing more than a collection of words with little substance.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby yuppie » Sat May 10, 2014 6:58 pm

sussexpob wrote:I wonder what the Australia Team of the late 90's to 2007 would have been like with Flower in charge. The idea that even the most dominate of sides have to mesh and bond on a personal level is a nothing argument really. That side had strong characters in it, from your Langer's, who was Mr Australia and insisted on leading the team in campfire songs( who as a youngster was known to pin up people against dressing room walls), the religious Hayden (who once rammed David Boon;s head in the side of the tour bus), Warne ( who once stated he wouldnt go on a team building exercise unless he was allowed extra baggage for his cigarettes, who openly hated the coach, and had a poor relationship with his captain), Steve Waugh (who made his team go on pilgrimages to Gallipoli and other sites of Australian history to gain perspective), McGrath (who called said captain as a result a nerd), Gilchrist (the deep family man who never saw eye to eye with with the flashy Warne or Pup) , Ponting ( the guy who's favourite party trick before being captain was to get drunk and piss on people) , Katich (who tried to strangle Michael Clarke), Hussey (Mr Cricket himself, who ditched a team party to stay in the hotel, and upset the whole of his team), Pup (who no one seems to like, and who is labelled selfish by a few players)......

It seems there isnt many people that have gotten on, but as has been noted by many a journalist in Australia, you wouldnt care to notice when it comes to cricket matches....

Warne is a very interesting case. His antics in the 2006 boot camp have been said to have disjointed the team ethic, but they won that series 5-0, so what does that say about team ethics???



Yep, what would the ECB have done with Warne? Seriously makes you wonder
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 7:13 pm

sussexpob wrote:I wonder what the Australia Team of the late 90's to 2007 would have been like with Flower in charge. The idea that even the most dominate of sides have to mesh and bond on a personal level is a nothing argument really. That side had strong characters in it, from your Langer's, who was Mr Australia and insisted on leading the team in campfire songs( who as a youngster was known to pin up people against dressing room walls), the religious Hayden (who once rammed David Boon;s head in the side of the tour bus), Warne ( who once stated he wouldnt go on a team building exercise unless he was allowed extra baggage for his cigarettes, who openly hated the coach, and had a poor relationship with his captain), Steve Waugh (who made his team go on pilgrimages to Gallipoli and other sites of Australian history to gain perspective), McGrath (who called said captain as a result a nerd), Gilchrist (the deep family man who never saw eye to eye with with the flashy Warne or Pup) , Ponting ( the guy who's favourite party trick before being captain was to get drunk and piss on people) , Katich (who tried to strangle Michael Clarke), Hussey (Mr Cricket himself, who ditched a team party to stay in the hotel, and upset the whole of his team), Pup (who no one seems to like, and who is labelled selfish by a few players)......

It seems there isnt many people that have gotten on, but as has been noted by many a journalist in Australia, you wouldnt care to notice when it comes to cricket matches....

Warne is a very interesting case. His antics in the 2006 boot camp have been said to have disjointed the team ethic, but they won that series 5-0, so what does that say about team ethics???

All very interesting, if true, but quite irrelevant.
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Re: Shut your eyes and think of England.

Postby D/L » Sat May 10, 2014 7:20 pm

sussexpob wrote:
The possibility of South African players looking for a way to destabilise the England team and what they had previously said about Pietersen are side issues

No, they were the issue. The ECB simply decided to create an issue where there was not one.

The issue was the reaction to the texts and then the ECB created another one based upon nothing? I think I've heard it all now.

Without the texts, there would have been no leak to the press and the furore that followed. Pietersen sent the texts, thereby creating the issue.
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