Test Cricket for Ireland?

[rich1uk]

AC's point had nothing to do with what facilities they might or might not have

because of security considerations who is going to tour there ?

[Arthur Crabtree]

They featured a prospective venue on the docu film about Afghan cricket. But it wasn't much more than a dream about a real grass wicket. Which is still something. But yes, being unable to host home games has to be something of a barrier to their progression.

[sussexpob]

I'm not sure that even a flourishing irish test scene would stop Irish players from switching to England. After all everyone seems to forget that unlik most other neighboring cricketing countries it is REALLY easy for any Irishman to become British and qualify for the English team. The reason? The common travel area. This semi-official arrangement means that Irish citizens once they land in the UK are essentially permanent residents (given indefinite leave to remain) and thus well on their way to qualifying for British citizenship in a matter of years if they want. This is separate and apart from the EU rules on freedom of movement (which has a similar but slightly weaker effect on the Netherlands and Denmark with regards to England).

The Irish Cricket Team is not just the "Republic" but is a combination of Southern and Northern Ireland, so Porterfield/Rankin/Stirling and several other players are British by birth, not what you would commonly class as "Irish".

I think that is a pretty important point myself, simply because protestant northern Irish players might not exactly want to play for an organisation that even in a some way politically represents a United Ireland, especially if you come from a Unionist background. Cricket in itself was always seen as a game of the Empire, and as such had serious negative connotations in Ireland. For this reason I doubt many Irish players are from non-Protestant backgrounds, and this is shown in the amount of English born or Northern Irish born players that have represented Ireland, which I would guess form a majority.

I cant find out the political allegiance of any players, only that Boyd Rankin went to a Anglican school (and being from somewhere like Derry, where the conflicts between the religious groups was historically the worst!!), and as a good example Rankin had only played a few matches in County cricket before he turned his back on Ireland to state he would prefer to try to make it in the England team.

Is there a political or religious reason that a United Ireland would lose players to England, even as an established nation?

[ChrisQ]

AC's point had nothing to do with what facilities they might or might not have

because of security considerations who is going to tour there ?

If his point had nothing to do with the facilities, then what on earth was the relevance of his bringing up Ireland's recent foray into "making an international venue"? Surely that shouldn't matter if what was really the point was security considerations since teams have toured Ireland for ages before this point.....

[rich1uk]

I didn't make the original point but I can only assume that in a discussion about which country is in the best position to host international matches you look at what each country needs to do to make that happen

Ireland needs better facilities , something they are working on and will have in the relatively near future

Afghanistan needs to resolve the security issues , something unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future and something that is way outside the remit of the cricket authorities

[ChrisQ]

I'm not sure that even a flourishing irish test scene would stop Irish players from switching to England. After all everyone seems to forget that unlik most other neighboring cricketing countries it is REALLY easy for any Irishman to become British and qualify for the English team. The reason? The common travel area. This semi-official arrangement means that Irish citizens once they land in the UK are essentially permanent residents (given indefinite leave to remain) and thus well on their way to qualifying for British citizenship in a matter of years if they want. This is separate and apart from the EU rules on freedom of movement (which has a similar but slightly weaker effect on the Netherlands and Denmark with regards to England).

The Irish Cricket Team is not just the "Republic" but is a combination of Southern and Northern Ireland, so Porterfield/Rankin/Stirling and several other players are British by birth, not what you would commonly class as "Irish".

Indeed. And added to that is the fact:

1. Any person born in Northern Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship (so Porterfield, Rankin, Stirling, etc are also entitled to Irish citizenship and have Irish nationality as a right of birth). By contrast only persons born to British citizens, Irish citizens or permanent residents in Northern Ireland are automatically British citizens.

2. Any Irish citizen (whether from the Republic or not) once they land in the UK are classed as permanent residents (given "settled status") unless they indicate to immigration that they have no intention of settling in the UK at that time.

So the Irish test scene will see persons who are already British citizens or who are in essence automatic British permanent residents and can become British citizens within 5 years of moving to the UK (by way of comparison, a Bangladeshi would have to live in India for 12 years to become a naturalized Indian citizen and play for the Indian cricket team... including residing in India for the 12 months before applying for naturalization and 11 out of the preceding 14 years). Essentially every member of the Irish team would be either almost immediately eligible to play for England or within 5 years and a house-move of doing so.

I think that is a pretty important point myself, simply because protestant northern Irish players might not exactly want to play for an organisation that even in a some way politically represents a United Ireland, especially if you come from a Unionist background.

I'm not sure about that since to the best of my knowledge, almost every international sport features a single All-Ireland team except for football. The rugby codes and hockey certainly have all-Ireland teams from what I remember. And I've never got the impression that the Irish cricket team was dominated by Catholic Irishmen and Catholic Northern Irishmen. In fact, I always got the impression that cricket in Ireland was strongest in Northern Ireland and Leinster, so I would not be surprised if the Irish team was actually a mix of Catholics and Protestants.

Maybe before the Good Friday Agreement had marked the weakening of the overt politico-religious conflict in Ireland I could see where this might be a factor, but not so much today....

[ChrisQ]

I didn't make the original point but I can only assume that in a discussion about which country is in the best position to host international matches you look at what each country needs to do to make that happen

Ireland needs better facilities , something they are working on and will have in the relatively near future

Afghanistan needs to resolve the security issues , something unlikely to happen in the foreseeable future and something that is way outside the remit of the cricket authorities

Afghanistan doesn't need to resolve the security issues any more than Pakistan does really. After all do you or AC remember the last time international cricket was actually played in Pakistan? The last team to tour Pakistan was actually Afghanistan in 2013 (they only played Pakistan A though). Before that the last full member to tour was Sri Lanka in that dangerous tour of the 2008/09 season. So I suspect that in the future Pakistan and Afghanistan may well tour each other, but other teams will play Pakistan and Afghanistan in the UAE until the security situations in both countries are such that other teams feel safe touring there.

The fact that the security situation is outside of the remit of the cricket authorities means that is something that cannot be held against the Afghan board anymore than it can be held against the PCB. Once they have international standard venues they have done their bit. Teams aren't forced to tour places against the best security advice.

[rich1uk]

and I made it perfectly clear it was outside the remit of the cricket authorities , still doesn't mean they are going to be hosting international cricket any time soon regardless of how good their facilities are which is the point being made ...

i'm out of this discussion

[sussexpob]

I'm not sure about that since to the best of my knowledge, almost every international sport features a single All-Ireland team except for football. The rugby codes and hockey certainly have all-Ireland teams from what I remember. And I've never got the impression that the Irish cricket team was dominated by Catholic Irishmen and Catholic Northern Irishmen. In fact, I always got the impression that cricket in Ireland was strongest in Northern Ireland and Leinster, so I would not be surprised if the Irish team was actually a mix of Catholics and Protestants.

Unionists are protestant, so I was making the opposite point. Cricket was actually a very popular sport in a United Ireland until the First World War, but after that regional sections of the IRA outside Dublin started to look down on it as a symbol of Unionists, and the game died out in all but Dublin (which is Leinster). Martin McGuiness, the former IRA head, actually apparently loved cricket (although he is from Derry, NI) and actually was said to cheer England on in the 70's..... but generally, cricket clubs were targets for Republican violence in Northern Ireland (Cliftonville Stadium was vandalised several times, before being burnt down in the early 1970's), and cricket even now in Northern Ireland has no significant following, and is seen as strictly protestant. And Northern Ireland has traditionally produced the lion share of the team, so yes, you could say that it has been more protestant.

[sussexpob]

I'm not sure about that since to the best of my knowledge, almost every international sport features a single All-Ireland team except for football.......Maybe before the Good Friday Agreement had marked the weakening of the overt politico-religious conflict in Ireland I could see where this might be a factor, but not so much today....

Nope, thats not true at all. Only Two days ago a move was made by several Unionist boxing clubs in Belfast to petition a change in the law that allows separate competition for Northern Ireland away from a United Ireland, as (and this is acknowledged by both sides) Unionist fighters from Protestant suburbs of Belfast who want to fight under the banner of a British Flag and sing their own official national anthem, have instead to listen to Londonderry Air and fight in the colours of Ireland. This also creates huge problems under the radar at local level when, as Northern Irish Protestant also end up having to fight in Ireland or forced to fight in Catholic dominated areas, they are increasingly becoming subjected to racial, religious and physical abuse, threats, etc.

In fact, the captain of the N. Irish boxing team stated after winning gold in the Commonwealth games (where Ireland are split) he did not acknowledge the medal ceremony as it "wasn't his flag, and wasn't his anthem" (or words to that effect). He wasn't the only one, and on both sides of the catholic/protestant divide. Boxing is a very good example as Northern Ireland has a vibrant and increasingly popular/successful working class following that is producing talent all over the place, and is not like rugby, an old established sport where a United Ireland team was created before the Irish Free State was created, and where it is limited to a small percentage of upper or middle class people, who are generally accepted to have been far less entrenched by sectarianism. It is clear in Boxing that the issues are becoming more prevalent, and that many boxers want the right to box under the colours, flag and nationality that they are. Interestingly, it is the Catholic Sinn Fein Sports minister who is resistive to a change and refused to grant ..... maybe because she prefers due to her political affiliation, to have British Protestants fight in Gold, white and Green and forced to acknowledge they are Irish!!! In Football, another very popular working class sport, a United Ireland team would never have been accepted or was possible.

Rugby has its problems too, and there have been accusations for years that Ulster protestant players are overlooked on performance. The anthem and flag issue is also a problem here, and the cultural bias is not hard to identify.... The Irish team play in Dublin exclusively, which fly's a Tricolour along side a mongrel flag, which plays the Irish national anthem alongside a shared one..... but when in 2011, a game scheduled in Belfast for a WC warm up was supposed to be held, the Irish Board refused to ever consider using Northern Ireland as a venue again for the future when it was pointed out a Union Flag and God Save the Queen would be sung instead of the Irish NA, as the established precedent was to use the home venue alongside the United Ireland flag/anthem.

In fact, ever seen how many Irish players (Republicans) sing the Ireland's call???? It was noted in the WC it was first used, 27 of the 30 man squad refused to sing it. Even now, hardly any non-Republic born Irishman acknowledges it, as do the Northern Ireland players with the Republic anthem.

And if it still doesn't matter, check out how desperately political correct Rory McIlroy is when taking about which nation he will represent at the Olympics next year.

[sussexpob]

For cricket, this will always mean that Northern Irish people who consider themselves loyalists, will always have to gravitate towards England over Ireland, sucking away a large part of the talent pool. Boyd Rankin (from Derry) for instance went to a former Protestant school and as soon as he earned a county contract he said he didn't want to represent Ireland, and would stop playing for them in order to pursue his chances with England.

[ChrisQ]

and I made it perfectly clear it was outside the remit of the cricket authorities , still doesn't mean they are going to be hosting international cricket any time soon regardless of how good their facilities are which is the point being made ...

i'm out of this discussion

Don't see why you need to act like that. I agreed with you. And pointed out that what Arthur said:

They featured a prospective venue on the docu film about Afghan cricket. But it wasn't much more than a dream about a real grass wicket. Which is still something. But yes, being unable to host home games has to be something of a barrier to their progression.

Was not based on actual ICC rules or guidelines but merely his personal feelings. Which simply don't mesh with what is already happening with regards to Pakistan and ignores the fact that Pakistan would likely be the first country (and perhaps for a while the only country) to tour an Afghanistan than got full membership since for Pakistan at least the security situation in Afghanistan would be something they were unfortunately all too familiar with at home.

Since I typed the earlier message from my phone (which makes it much harder to put out a more elaborate message with a copied quote of AC's words) my message was naturally a lot shorter than it ideally would have been.

[ChrisQ]

I'm not sure about that since to the best of my knowledge, almost every international sport features a single All-Ireland team except for football. The rugby codes and hockey certainly have all-Ireland teams from what I remember. And I've never got the impression that the Irish cricket team was dominated by Catholic Irishmen and Catholic Northern Irishmen. In fact, I always got the impression that cricket in Ireland was strongest in Northern Ireland and Leinster, so I would not be surprised if the Irish team was actually a mix of Catholics and Protestants.

Unionists are protestant, so I was making the opposite point. Cricket was actually a very popular sport in a United Ireland until the First World War, but after that regional sections of the IRA outside Dublin started to look down on it as a symbol of Unionists, and the game died out in all but Dublin (which is Leinster). Martin McGuiness, the former IRA head, actually apparently loved cricket (although he is from Derry, NI) and actually was said to cheer England on in the 70's..... but generally, cricket clubs were targets for Republican violence in Northern Ireland (Cliftonville Stadium was vandalised several times, before being burnt down in the early 1970's), and cricket even now in Northern Ireland has no significant following, and is seen as strictly protestant. And Northern Ireland has traditionally produced the lion share of the team, so yes, you could say that it has been more protestant.

Okay I get your point now and it's definitely a good one and that information is fascinating.

[ChrisQ]

I'm not sure about that since to the best of my knowledge, almost every international sport features a single All-Ireland team except for football.......Maybe before the Good Friday Agreement had marked the weakening of the overt politico-religious conflict in Ireland I could see where this might be a factor, but not so much today....

Nope, thats not true at all. Only Two days ago a move was made by several Unionist boxing clubs in Belfast to petition a change in the law that allows separate competition for Northern Ireland away from a United Ireland, as (and this is acknowledged by both sides) Unionist fighters from Protestant suburbs of Belfast who want to fight under the banner of a British Flag and sing their own official national anthem, have instead to listen to Londonderry Air and fight in the colours of Ireland. This also creates huge problems under the radar at local level when, as Northern Irish Protestant also end up having to fight in Ireland or forced to fight in Catholic dominated areas, they are increasingly becoming subjected to racial, religious and physical abuse, threats, etc.

That they should be subjected to abuse is truly sad. This information overall is enlightening!

In fact, the captain of the N. Irish boxing team stated after winning gold in the Commonwealth games (where Ireland are split) he did not acknowledge the medal ceremony as it "wasn't his flag, and wasn't his anthem" (or words to that effect). He wasn't the only one, and on both sides of the catholic/protestant divide. Boxing is a very good example as Northern Ireland has a vibrant and increasingly popular/successful working class following that is producing talent all over the place, and is not like rugby, an old established sport where a United Ireland team was created before the Irish Free State was created, and where it is limited to a small percentage of upper or middle class people, who are generally accepted to have been far less entrenched by sectarianism. It is clear in Boxing that the issues are becoming more prevalent, and that many boxers want the right to box under the colours, flag and nationality that they are. Interestingly, it is the Catholic Sinn Fein Sports minister who is resistive to a change and refused to grant ..... maybe because she prefers due to her political affiliation, to have British Protestants fight in Gold, white and Green and forced to acknowledge they are Irish!!!

Wow.

But is it gold, white and green? I thought it was orange, white and green.

Speaking of the colours though, this reminds of me of why it is I got the impression that there wasn't much of a problem now with the religious/national aspect for Irish cricket....the flags I saw being used at the 2007 cricket World Cup. I know that cricket Ireland has its own blue flag with shamrocks on it but the flags at the grounds were often both the old ulster flag or northern Irish flag and the Republic flag.

In Football, another very popular working class sport, a United Ireland team would never have been accepted or was possible.

Yes I do remember reading about Irish football and the formation of ten IFA and FAI

Rugby has its problems too, and there have been accusations for years that Ulster protestant players are overlooked on performance. The anthem and flag issue is also a problem here, and the cultural bias is not hard to identify.... The Irish team play in Dublin exclusively, which fly's a Tricolour along side a mongrel flag, which plays the Irish national anthem alongside a shared one..... but when in 2011, a game scheduled in Belfast for a WC warm up was supposed to be held, the Irish Board refused to ever consider using Northern Ireland as a venue again for the future when it was pointed out a Union Flag and God Save the Queen would be sung instead of the Irish NA, as the established precedent was to use the home venue alongside the United Ireland flag/anthem.

That's disgusting of them!

In fact, ever seen how many Irish players (Republicans) sing the Ireland's call???? It was noted in the WC it was first used, 27 of the 30 man squad refused to sing it. Even now, hardly any non-Republic born Irishman acknowledges it, as do the Northern Ireland players with the Republic anthem.

And if it still doesn't matter, check out how desperately political correct Rory McIlroy is when taking about which nation he will represent at the Olympics next year.

Indeed all of this does seem to point to Irish cricket not being able to avoid these religious-cultural-national fissures if the game develops more in Ireland and brings in more of the working class (wider) population (that is assuming that these fissures haven't already affected Ireland which seems quite doubtful based on your next post and on then evidence in these posts).

[ChrisQ]

For cricket, this will always mean that Northern Irish people who consider themselves loyalists, will always have to gravitate towards England over Ireland, sucking away a large part of the talent pool. Boyd Rankin (from Derry) for instance went to a former Protestant school and as soon as he earned a county contract he said he didn't want to represent Ireland, and would stop playing for them in order to pursue his chances with England.

Indeed that does seem to be the case. So a thriving Irish test scene would have to deal with:

1. Protestant Nothern Irish who consider themselves loyalist gravitating towards the main representative "British" team (England) and thus sapping a part of the Irish cricketing talent pool

2. Catholic southern Irish who may gravitate towards playing for English counties and England on the basis of pay and more opportunities to develop their cricket (after all even with a thriving Irish test scene, Ireland would not likely be able to match the English counties and England in terms of facilities, development and remuneration) and being able to do so fairly easily (after all, you just need to fly to England, find an apartment and start playing cricket locally there and have an okay job to hold you over and in 5 years you can qualify to play for England. A Irishman who loves cricket and wishes to make the most out of his cricket at say...age 23 would possibly be able to qualify for England by age 28 and could hope to have a good 10 years with England if he does well. A 23 year old Bangladeshi would not qualify for India until age 35 at the earliest by which time he isn't looking at spending that long in the Indian team...



Which may mean that you are quite right in your questioning observation that even as an established nation, there would be reasons why Ireland would continue to lose players to England.