Cricket-Match-Special ... A forum for discussion

Its not only cricket, but society in general that has the identity dilemma, yet cricket (like boxing's resurgence in the country) is a new phenomenon that has no age old culture really pulling together the bonds of a United Ireland team, and has to fight with a much larger pull of domestic cricket in England to contend with.

This is where the "poaching Irish players" argument that some commentators tout becomes ultimately ridiculous. Many Northern Irish people identify themselves as British only, some identify themselves as Irish (Footballer James McClean took Irish Nationality by choice) and others simply as Northern Irish. Try telling a loyalist they are Irish and you will greatly offend them, tell a Republican they are British, equally so..... a United Irish team panders really only to Republicans, and the net result is you will see a leak of Loyalists towards England.

This is my personal opinion, and there are actually examples that contradict it. Carl Frampton, a Belfast protestant boxer growing up in Tiger Bay (big Unionist area) fought for a United Ireland and married a catholic, and his success in Northern Ireland is having the opposite effect. He rejected any notion that he would prefer to have fought as an amateur under the banner of Britain, and instead seems to indicate he doesn't care what label people give him.

It will be interesting to see how the boxing board issue pans out, because if the Northern Irish Boxing Association gains independence from Ireland like the calls for it suggest, then the Good Friday Agreement provisions that allow for this self national determination type situation could equally result in a Northern Irish cricket board moving towards the same measure quickly.

At the moment, Sport Northern Ireland are not required to fund or acknowledge these independent boards, but the future could change with boxing forcing a legal precedent, and could a separate Ireland and N.Ireland both have test teams.... can either without the other?

sussexpob wrote:Its not only cricket, but society in general that has the identity dilemma, yet cricket (like boxing's resurgence in the country) is a new phenomenon that has no age old culture really pulling together the bonds of a United Ireland team, and has to fight with a much larger pull of domestic cricket in England to contend with.

This is where the "poaching Irish players" argument that some commentators tout becomes ultimately ridiculous. Many Northern Irish people identify themselves as British only, some identify themselves as Irish (Footballer James McClean took Irish Nationality by choice) and others simply as Northern Irish. Try telling a loyalist they are Irish and you will greatly offend them, tell a Republican they are British, equally so..... a United Irish team panders really only to Republicans, and the net result is you will see a leak of Loyalists towards England.

Good points.

The "poaching" argument though I usually saw as another aspect of the victimization tendency of Deutrom's Cricket Ireland (along the lines of the claims of there being "no clear pathway" to full membership). It always sounded a bit too much like Deutrom's board was playing the victim instead of addressing the actual issues (putting in place a 3-day or 4-day tournament which in turn would help to put Ireland on the path to test cricket and possibly encourage those Irish players (either Northern Irish or southern Irish) who do NOT consider themselves British or those who, even if they do consider themselves British, would be quite fine playing for Ireland to stick with Ireland until full membership is attained).

This is my personal opinion, and there are actually examples that contradict it. Carl Frampton, a Belfast protestant boxer growing up in Tiger Bay (big Unionist area) fought for a United Ireland and married a catholic, and his success in Northern Ireland is having the opposite effect. He rejected any notion that he would prefer to have fought as an amateur under the banner of Britain, and instead seems to indicate he doesn't care what label people give him.

It will be interesting to see how the boxing board issue pans out, because if the Northern Irish Boxing Association gains independence from Ireland like the calls for it suggest, then the Good Friday Agreement provisions that allow for this self national determination type situation could equally result in a Northern Irish cricket board moving towards the same measure quickly.

Well that would be quite a shock in the cricketing world outside of Ireland for those who wouldn't have been aware of the extent of any of these sporting issues.

Ultimately I quite like the unified Irish team as a concept since I think it's long past due for the two major communities on the island to bury the hatchet and to be quite fine with and indeed embrace having multiple identities (British, Northern Irish and Irish; Catholic and Protestant; Republican and Monarchial; etc) within a larger overall community.

I wonder though if the structure of domestic cricket in Ireland as it has evolved since the late 1800s makes it difficult for a separate Northern Irish Cricket Board to be established. At the present, Cricket Ireland (which was established ironically enough only after partition in 1923 as the Irish Cricket Union) has 5 provincial boards: Connacht (the newest; established in 2010), Munster, Leinster (established some time between 1885 and 1922), Northern (oldest; established 1884) and North West (established 1890). The Northern Cricket Board is located entirely within Northern Ireland while the North West covers parts of Northern Ireland and all of Donegal which is in the Republic of Ireland. So theoretically any Northern Irish Cricket Board would have to include (and probably originate from) the Northern Cricket Union and either include the North West Union as a body (and thereafter exclude Donegal from the jurisdiction of the North West provincial union) or have the areas within Northern Ireland under the jurisdiction of the North West union be transferred to the Northern Cricket Union and thereby leave the North West cricket union with only Donegal.

At the moment, Sport Northern Ireland are not required to fund or acknowledge these independent boards, but the future could change with boxing forcing a legal precedent, and could a separate Ireland and N.Ireland both have test teams.... can either without the other?

Well a separate Northern Ireland is unlikely to have a test team. After all the same problems which beset Ireland now with some Northern Irish players considering themselves as British would affect a Northern Irish Cricket Board in that players who are loyalists will probably not have a problem representing Northern Ireland (as opposed to All-Ireland), but they would likely feel quite comfortable representing England as well and it's obvious that for quite some time the better opportunities to develop one's cricket would be across the Irish Sea in England.

A separate Ireland would have a much reduced player pool and would still have the problem of some (now quite clearly "only Irish" rather than "British and sorta Irish/Northern Irish") players moving to England to develop their cricket and possibly thinking along the lines of pursuing a test career (with the easiest option being England of course).

cricketfan90 wrote:do we have to have this debate every time Ireland win a game of cricket??? It would be great if they got test status, but it simply wont happen..

imho the problem is that the icc is a boys club which will always find reasons to keep new members from joining. If we keep on this path only the big three will be playing each other in the years to come. Will Porterfield is right. This only happens in cricket. The icc needs to grasp the nettle and invite Ireland and Afghanistan into the fold.

I want a couple more teams in test cricket that West Indies have a chance of beating....

Ireland dont have grounds for an automatic right to test cricket though.... they dont have any sort of half decent first class structure, no grounds really suitable for test match cricket, and most of their squad play in english domestic cricket...they need to sort out their own infrascturure before they have any chance at test status..

Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.

As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.

dan08 wrote:Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.

As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.

If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.

Very much chicken and egg.

Making_Splinters wrote:

dan08 wrote:Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.

As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.

If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.

Very much chicken and egg.

Surely they could still play county cricket as domestic players under EU law though. Wouldn't that override the ECB's overseas criteria?

dan08 wrote:

Making_Splinters wrote:

dan08 wrote:Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.

As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.

If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.

Very much chicken and egg.

Surely they could still play county cricket as domestic players under EU law though. Wouldn't that override the ECB's overseas criteria?

Actually, you're right there.

Since I've never really thought in depth about the ins and outs of this I've never really read the full detail of the Full Member stipulation. It only applies to players playing for a Full Member outside of the European Ecconomic Area, and therefore not to Ireland.

I can't see how this would stand up if Ireland became a full member, surely it would be an issue for England to have active Test cricketers from another Full Member playing as domestic players in their league. That said, I am by no means an expert on European trade and employment laws.

technically they could but the quotas are an agreement between the ECB and the counties and have nothing to do with EU laws

for example, there is nothing legally stopping a county having as many kolpak players as they want , the agreement on restrictions is internal

counties are not going to sue the ECB for not being allowed to exceed their quotas as they are dependent on the ECB , a player could possibly challenge it on legal grounds if their contract was terminated but they would have to prove it had been done for those reasons rather than being a cricket decision

Making_Splinters wrote:

dan08 wrote:

Making_Splinters wrote:

dan08 wrote:Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.

As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.

If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.

Very much chicken and egg.

Surely they could still play county cricket as domestic players under EU law though. Wouldn't that override the ECB's overseas criteria?

Actually, you're right there.

Since I've never really thought in depth about the ins and outs of this I've never really read the full detail of the Full Member stipulation. It only applies to players playing for a Full Member outside of the European Ecconomic Area, and therefore not to Ireland.

I can't see how this would stand up if Ireland became a full member, surely it would be an issue for England to have active Test cricketers from another Full Member playing as domestic players in their league. That said, I am by no means an expert on European trade and employment laws.

Yes it would be an issue and one not readily resolved by the ECB given existing EEA laws.

ChrisQ wrote:

Making_Splinters wrote:

dan08 wrote:

Making_Splinters wrote:

dan08 wrote:Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.

As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.

If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.

Very much chicken and egg.

Surely they could still play county cricket as domestic players under EU law though. Wouldn't that override the ECB's overseas criteria?

Actually, you're right there.

Since I've never really thought in depth about the ins and outs of this I've never really read the full detail of the Full Member stipulation. It only applies to players playing for a Full Member outside of the European Ecconomic Area, and therefore not to Ireland.

I can't see how this would stand up if Ireland became a full member, surely it would be an issue for England to have active Test cricketers from another Full Member playing as domestic players in their league. That said, I am by no means an expert on European trade and employment laws.

Yes it would be an issue and one not readily resolved by the ECB given existing EEA laws.

Well, it would be resolved by Irish cricket having residency criteria to play for Ireland, just like the ECB do.

Making_Splinters wrote:

ChrisQ wrote:

Making_Splinters wrote:

dan08 wrote:

Making_Splinters wrote:
If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.

Very much chicken and egg.

Surely they could still play county cricket as domestic players under EU law though. Wouldn't that override the ECB's overseas criteria?

Actually, you're right there.

Since I've never really thought in depth about the ins and outs of this I've never really read the full detail of the Full Member stipulation. It only applies to players playing for a Full Member outside of the European Ecconomic Area, and therefore not to Ireland.

I can't see how this would stand up if Ireland became a full member, surely it would be an issue for England to have active Test cricketers from another Full Member playing as domestic players in their league. That said, I am by no means an expert on European trade and employment laws.

Yes it would be an issue and one not readily resolved by the ECB given existing EEA laws.

Well, it would be resolved by Irish cricket having residency criteria to play for Ireland, just like the ECB do.

Hmm...are you sure?

Reading the rules here together: http://www.avoncroftcc.co.uk/resources/ ... d+Code.pdf

QUALIFICATIONS OF CRICKETERS TO PLAY FOR ENGLAND

Subject to overriding discretion of the ECB, acting with the consent of the International Cricket Council, a Cricketer will only be qualified to play for England in a Test Match or in a One Day International Match if;

1.1 he is either a British citizen or an Irish citizen; and
1.2.1 he was born within England and Wales; or
1.2.2 he has been resident in England and Wales for the immediately
preceding four consecutive years; and
1.3 he has not during the immediately preceding four consecutive years either played cricket for any Full Member Country outside the EEA at U17 level or above, or played First Class Cricket in any such Full Member Country except as an overseas cricketer under local rules similar to Regulation 3, or in any other circumstances approved by the ECB; and
1.4 he makes, whenever requested by the ECB, a declaration in the form set out in Annex A to the ECB Regulations.

2.1 In the case of a Cricketer seeking to become qualified under 1.2.2 above he will (until he has become qualified to play for England) only be treated as having been resident within England and Wales for the relevant consecutive period if he has spent a minimum of 210 days in each year within England and Wales (for which purpose "year" shall mean a year ending 1st April).

REGULATIONS GOVERNING THE QUALIFICATION AND REGISTRATION OF CRICKETERS FOR COMPETITIVE COUNTY CRICKET

Subject to the overriding discretion of the ECB and subject as provided below, a Cricketer will only be qualified to play in Competitive County Cricket match (a Qualified Cricketer) if;

1.1 he is an EEA national or a national of a state which is a party to an agreement with the EU and its members states providing that their nationals lawfully employed within the EEA shall have employment rights equal to
those of EEA nationals; and
1.2 he has not, within the 12 months leading up 10 April 1 st immediately before the season in question, either played cricket for any Full Member Country outside the EEA at U17 level or above, or played First Class Cricket in any such Full Member Country except as an overseas cricketer under local rules similar to ECB Regulation 3 i(Unqualified Cricketers) or in any circumstances approved by the ECB; and
1.3 he makes, whenever requested by the ECB, a declaration in the form set out in Annex A to ECB Regulations.

These rules mean that an EEA national has an unrestricted right to play in county cricket, even if they had played first class cricket or test cricket for a full member country within the EEA. It also means that British or Irish citizens can play for the England team once they had been resident in England and Wales for 4 years and during those 4 years not played test cricket for a full member outside the EEA or played first class cricket outside of the EEA.

I think the rules are such that it could easily be argued that the residency requirement does not require absolutely continuous residence, but rather habitual residence (where it is you normally consider "home" and have your bills paid and live etc) because otherwise requirement 1.3 is unnecessary/redundant (it wouldn't be physically possible for someone to play first class cricket outside the EEA if they had to be resident 365.25 days per year in England or Wales.

If Ireland has the same rules it could mean that Irish test players could possibly be considered as resident in Ireland and still turn out for county championship matches.

SA 411/4 and Ireland currently 65/5.

Anyone still think they should have test status?

After their win versus WI i had opined that test status should not be decided on ODI match, likewise on this bashing match i would not consider them to be out of test status. The paramenters they have to be judged should be the relevant ones, which imo are how much is their bench strength which is important once key players get injured, how good are their key players for test format, how good is their domestic cricketing system to supply the relevant format cricketers, how good they are doing in 4 day matches etc.

clubcricketeradi wrote:After their win versus WI i had opined that test status should not be decided on ODI match, likewise on this bashing match i would not consider them to be out of test status. The paramenters they have to be judged should be the relevant ones, which imo are how much is their bench strength which is important once key players get injured, how good are their key players for test format, how good is their domestic cricketing system to supply the relevant format cricketers, how good they are doing in 4 day matches etc.

Currently, their only outstanding player in English county cricket is 36....