Alistair Cook - Under rated?

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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Gingerfinch » Tue May 31, 2016 10:57 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Sorry, that last paragraph was his standing among England openers. Forgot about Amiss again.

Generally, there is a bit of artificiality about a club of greats that starts at 10000. Why not 9000? Or 11000? Or perhaps more pertinently, why not 50 average plus? That's probably the club we think of, when we think of the stats of great players. Same as bowlers averaging under 22.


Not many recent (Only Root?) England players have averaged over 50 in tests. Boycs, Gooch, KP, Gower, included. 10,000 runs and counting with an average of 46-47 is enough imo to make him an England great.
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 31, 2016 12:06 pm

I don't think many make those ATG claims for England batters though, possibly since Hutton or Barrington. Maybe Cook qualifies in the context of England players, mainly through weight of runs, longevity and possibly through two series, away in Australia and away in India, with regards to legendary feats. Cook's average is on its way down, so if he averages 43 at the end, that'll feel like an impediment. Gooch averaged about that, but there is a strong oral history surrounding his tour of the West Indies in 1990, and his two Headingley knocks. Time will tell.

These reputations might be formed by viewers in childhood and carried through to maturity. Unfortunately for Cook, few in England have seen him bat, as his career has been post the Sky take over, and interest in the game has dwindled. Maybe a mythology won't evolve. Maybe it's just part of my bias against him, and it's unquantifiable, but he doesn't seem to have the aura that many great players have, like Waugh or Lara. Or England greats like Boycott and KP.
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Making_Splinters » Tue May 31, 2016 1:31 pm

Part of the problem with cricket is that if you play it long enough you'll get to the top of a pile sooner or later. If Cook plays for another 7 or so years he'll probably score more runs than Tendulkar did, I doubt you'd find a single cricket fan - baring the most bias of Essex boys - who'd ever say Cook was the better player. He'll certainly pass Ponting, Kallis, Dravid and Lara if he stays fit, yet he's not in the same class as any of those either.
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby m@tt » Tue May 31, 2016 10:48 pm

I don't think Cook is under-rated, though maybe under-appreciated by some. It's just that it's hard to get excited by him (not a fault, a team can't be full of exciting players!). People could get quite passionate about Lara and Tendulkar. Less so about Kallis or Chanderpaul.

Some people (myself included) are probably being a bit too quick to, not downplay his achievements, but attempt to add more context to his achievements. Like pointing out that the "quickest to 10k" tag is a bit mis-leading. Some of that is pedantry, some of that is an ability to warm to Cook after the mess in 13/14.

He'll go down as one of England's best openers. Would he get in an all-time England XI? Do people look back upon former England openers like Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe and Boycott with rose-tinted glasses?

As to how long he goes on for, that's down to him. Fitness doesn't seem to be an issue for him. Motivation is something else. England dropped Bell because they felt he had lost his edge after a decade in the side and long list of achievements. Though I don't ever see them dropping Cook - at best it would be a mutual decision for him to stop, when that time comes. Cook's played 128 games, got 10k runs, has won the Ashes 4 times (twice as captain), won series in India and South Africa. He will want to beat Australia away again, banish the demons of 13/14, but after that?
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Making_Splinters » Tue May 31, 2016 11:00 pm

Cook's achievement has more brought up the question, "Does playing longer make you a better player?" more than anything else. I doubt anyone would not recognise he is a very good batsman and probably one of the best England have produced since the war. But does scoring 10,00 runs at 46 make you a better player than someone who score 7000 at 58? No, it just means you had the opportunity to play for longer.

I doubt Cook will every be seen as a great batsman, his average is just too low to be placed with the best the game has seen.
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue May 31, 2016 11:06 pm

I am with you matt can't see him carrying on after the next ashes.
also it is a double edge sword, cook is less appreciated overseas because of the claim of him being the youngest to every 1000 interval
sun had a list of 10K runs by innings and cook is 8th out of 11 only border, Steve waugh and Chanderpaul took longer.

and in the fastest to 9K runs he is 11 slowest out of 14.
G Smith, Younis Khan all quicker than him.

fastest to 8000k against cook is low down the list, 20 out of 26.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/conten ... 83187.html
Gooch, boycott and gower were slower.
Miandad, sehwag, sobers, richards, clarke, AB, inzamam ul haq and kp all quicker.

the reason people can't appreciate him is because he only scored 10,000 quickly due to the fact England plays loads of games, in terms of stats he quite below loads of players in the world.

really the amount of runs shouldn't have any bearing on greatness considering if runs and wickets were everything a bloody good chance Ishant Sharma going to be supposedly better than most seam bowlers because he taken 201 wickets and counting.
ishant sharma essentially will take loads of wickets because of his young age and playing loads of matches.

reckon cook will have a look after the next ashes and see how many runs he needs for the record, if he still need 2-3K he might retire if the team loses the ashes but if he still in good form and his close to breaking the record he might stay on.

but really he might need to play 220+ test to break the record which at the moment is touch and go.
Last edited by Dr Cricket on Tue May 31, 2016 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue May 31, 2016 11:06 pm

Making_Splinters wrote:Cook's achievement has more brought up the question, "Does playing longer make you a better player?" more than anything else. I doubt anyone would not recognise he is a very good batsman and probably one of the best England have produced since the war. But does scoring 10,00 runs at 46 make you a better player than someone who score 7000 at 58? No, it just means you had the opportunity to play for longer.

I doubt Cook will every be seen as a great batsman, his average is just too low to be placed with the best the game has seen.


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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 31, 2016 11:20 pm

The issue of the bowlers not being so good now gets a good hearing. Especially, it is said, when compared with those faced by Athers. While I tend to agree with that, I'm not sure it is easy to prove. Changes to pitches, drainage, the ball, bats, etc can seem to make bowlers look worse. Steyn apart (and in the context of England, Swann) the last decade hasn't done a good job of convincing posterity that the bowlers out there now are all that great. Which has successfully diminished the reputation of a decade of batters.
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue May 31, 2016 11:25 pm

TBH think the bowling averages would be the prove.
most attacks were better in the 90s.
only england probably have a better attack now on paper.
the rest would take the 90s attack over the current crop.
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 31, 2016 11:30 pm

Well, that's how it looks. But of course there are other factors. I don't mind just accepting that Steyn (and briefly Harris and Asif) apart, the bowlers are not in a golden age. It feels that way.
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 31, 2016 11:39 pm

If we take the retirement of Warne and McG as the fag end of a golden age of Test bowling, since then these are the averages for bowlers with 100 wickets.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling

Only The Superhuman Steyn, Big Vern, Ryano and Ashwin stand up as potential greats. Based on stats.

Some analysis is necessary for 'boutique pitches' made to order for home bowlers that have been recently de rigueur..
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue May 31, 2016 11:43 pm

You could probably exclude philander and Ashwin being potential greats.
Although Ashwin got a slim chance of reaching it, but then he would be the bowling version of cook, chances are he can beat murali and warne record or get close to it.

Really only steyn and Ryan harris were all time greats in the period although broad and Anderson are pretty good as well. Although cook can't face them in games.
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue May 31, 2016 11:49 pm

There is a sort of doublethink that goes on among some ECB loyal journos. Anderson's average is unfairly high because of flat pitches, Cook's average is unfairly low because he bats in England....
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue May 31, 2016 11:57 pm

Tbh think cook average aspect cancel out since in reality not all pitches were difficult to bat in England or years either.
From about 2008- 2013 batting in England wasn't that tough not that much movement in pitches and I remember test against sub c team were really flat and the term corporate wickets were invented and bowlers blaming it on drainage etc only been in recent time and even then only in a few test against India and Australia has the batting been difficult.

Anderson average is high only because of poor start and the fact it is quite hard to get wicket cheaply all the time when vast majority of pitches are flat.
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Re: Alistair Cook - Under rated?

Postby Dr Cricket » Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:00 am

really cook hasn't got a low average because of opening in England he got a mid 40 average because he has a flaw in his technique which causes him to struggle against high quality pace bowling or when the ball is moving a bit.
Can anyone actually remember him scoring in a minefield in England or overseas excluding Asia.

The fact he had 3 decent size poor period is the reason he got a low average not because he plays in England.
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