Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:53 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote: Sorry, I thought I read a negative tone about those being brought in, but you were contrasting the chances being given to the medium pacer against the fast bowlers.

Fletch thought Saj and Plunkett would bowl reverse swing on flat Asian pitches, and Lewis would be murdered. We never found out. Certainly, Lewis might as well not been picked for the chance he got, but he did play in ODIs, where he was primarily a new ball bowler. Perhaps he didn't impress in those and got shuffled in Tests. Fletch felt that Hoggy needed protection in conditions where the ball was doing little, maybe he thought he couldn't hide two medium pacers. Lewis got to play at Trent Bridge, an obvious pick for local conditions.


No worries Arthur. I accept that could be a problem to be one dimensional and having some pace has its uses, but in trying to find a way around it more problems were created.

I remember posting on 606 about the away tours of 2005-06 that England were on the cusp of a disaster. I was categorically destroyed for that article, I think I got a 1 star rating from about 100 review :lol: Which was good even for me! You might be able to find it here, but a similar thing happened before the 2013 away Ashes series.

Flower and Fletcher when faced with an ageing team and needing to rebuild, both became over-confident by their earlier successes and justified a series of incredibly bad selection bungles. And they didnt learn when the warning signs were there.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:02 pm

Of course we are drifting off topic, but threads are organic.

Bhaveshgor raises a point about Fletcher reverting to the 90's selection. I think its an interesting point about Fletcher, simply because what Fletcher set out to do in 1999 was take England away from those selection disasters. Fletcher was a pragmatist and a visionary. I will never take away from Fletcher what he did for England, without him resorting belief in the system and with English cricket fans, flower would never have inherited a position he could work with. I respect Fletcher immensely for the overall job he did for England. Yet in the last 2-3 years Fletcher had run out of ideas. I think he even confused the ethos of what he set out to do 6 years before.

The overall message in the late 1990's was that England had tainted so many careers, there was little incentive for county players to stand out. Hick/Ramps were re-writing county records but were failures, and any guy scoring a 100 would get a test, but unless he then score another 100, may as well have retired and got another career. Therefore county cricket was a place for lost souls, of too many no hopers with no elevation route playing together around people with limited talent, who were made to look better because overall few players were motivated enough to really go out and grab a game by the scruff of its neck. England sorted through everyone, it was a disaster.

Fletcher therefore wanted to make county cricket relevant. He wants to say to the talented guy averaging in the low 30's, show me what you have got. Show me that your record comes about by being a victim of the system you have been brought up in. Guys like Vaughan and Tresco were immense success, Fletcher saw the talent there. But after half a decade, his plans backfired. Players who were enlivened to produce consistently were pretty much overlooked, but Fletcher was more concerned for unearthing those with certain attributes that he thought would stand up. By discrediting performance to encourage people, he discouraged them.

By the end he was picking young lads who had proved nothing on the basis of a few characteristics. County cricket and long term performance once again became irrelevant.This is very important. When it comes to recycling success you have to have a policy in place that is constantly identify replacements and building on what you have.

Yet Fletcher and Flower's main problem was they only cared about success infront of them, and they pissed in their own drinking water constantly. When they became thirsty, they had to go without.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:09 pm

I see this also nowadays. There are plenty of players in county cricket who's performances are great, but there is no incentive to be great. Chris Rushworth smashed the league apart in the last couple of years, but he must be getting to the point of not bothering. The whole system of English cricket would benefit with him being picked even for a squad, simply because you want a Rushworth caring... you want him to be steaming in believing he has a chance.

The knock on effect is your batting prospects are then batting against someone very challenging. This improves their level and makes their selection more easy. They get used to tougher cricket. When you pick a batter, he is better.

At the moment if I was an 18 year old prospect, I would be practicing bowling as quickly as I could, learn to reverse it, but not even worry if I hit the cut strip.... England scouts arent interested in that. So you end up with some 20 year old kids going on Lions tour with no first class wickets to play with, simply because the England system believes they can coach you into international class. It doesnt matter that a you cant shine against a standard division 2 side.

I think that then sends those negative messages through the system. I hate this convention of coaching players to be greats. Apart from Swann, are there many players since Fletchers first few years that were successfully transferred this way? Even Swann isnt a great example, he basically hit the ground running despite prevously not being involved with the team.

Possibly Flintoff? Simon Jones maybe, but he only took 50 test wickets, if he remained fit he could have been easily 1 year away from irrelevance.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby alfie » Wed Jun 08, 2016 1:40 pm

Excellent article , Sussex :clap

Agree with just about all your points re Anderson's development ...may come back with some discussion when I have more time.

Would have been interesting to see Sidebottom in Australia in 2006/7 (He certainly couldn't have done any worse than those who were there !) Though I'm not sure he'd have been able to thrive on the pitches produced then : of course we'll never know...
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Slipstream » Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:41 am

Anderson said in his book they started changing his action as early as 2003. He had finished the SA series and had a knee injury which came from being overbowled.

He was only in his first year of first class cricket having bowled 256 overs in 2002 for Lancs to 552 overs in Tests and ODIs in 2003. That was when many changes to his action started. From 2003 until March 06 he was bowling with a foreign action which caused him to lose pace and swing. 13 Tests. 2007 was about reverting to his old action which must have taken a while. Even then he was still looking for that magic ball.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Dr Cricket » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:40 am

might be wrong but think 2007 Anderson might have been England man of the series in that 3 test series against India.

Zaheer Khan was the india pick because of his game winning spell in Trent bridge.

England's Man of the Series is James anderson for his 14 wickets in three Tests. He beat Vaughan and Pietersen to the prize. "It's been disappointing for the team," says Anderson. But he's bowled rather well through it, he was exceptional at Lord's and recovered from a poor Test at Trent Bridge to bowl well at The Oval.

the odd part is quite hard to actually pick out Anderson from that series, not actually remember him actually being threatening since I actually believe barring first test india batting pretty much dominated the bowlers.
oval 700 runs and TB Zaheer won the game but india still score 400+ in the first innings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OIcOS8DaGU
from the comms it sounds like Anderson had a brilliant Lords test though.

Guessing he tried to hard in the 2nd test where conditions were quite bowling friendly and in the 3rd test was quite flat and needed more of his Reverse skill and subtle differences he uses in the Sub C now but didn't fully know what he was doing then.


Still baffles me how India only got 3 Test in that series, 4 or 5 test in that summer would have been so much better considering it did look like being an absolute cracker, considering England could have still won 2-1 or drew the series 1-1 and not really sure if 1-0 was a fair result although it was better than winning a 2 test series.

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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:43 am

Slipstream wrote:Anderson said in his book they started changing his action as early as 2003. He had finished the SA series and had a knee injury which came from being overbowled.

He was only in his first year of first class cricket having bowled 256 overs in 2002 for Lancs to 552 overs in Tests and ODIs in 2003. That was when many changes to his action started. From 2003 until March 06 he was bowling with a foreign action which caused him to lose pace and swing. 13 Tests. 2007 was about reverting to his old action which must have taken a while. Even then he was still looking for that magic ball.


I have not seen any references (apart from Anderson himself who states they tried to change him as soon as he got there in my forums) that suggests any major action changes were attempted in 2003, all the commentators (admittedly without referencing the information) seem to indicate it was later just before Cooley left. What we do know is that Troy Cooley was given a mission to teach the England bowlers how to reverse swing the ball, and maybe he tried to make changes to Anderson that allowed him to do that. Bowlers also change, I have read pieces in the last few days in responding to points on this thread that indicate pre-joining Lancs Anderson had a very natural and rhythmical action. Maybe at some stage in his early development at the county, or right at the start with England as Anderson indicates, this jittery action was forced upon him to generate more pace or swing.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:49 am

bhaveshgor wrote:might be wrong but think 2007 Anderson might have been England man of the series in that 3 test series against India.


He returned match figures of 1/157 at Trent Bridge and conceeded 182 runs in the first at the Oval.... good first innings at Lords. It must have been a pretty terrible series if Anderson won a man of the series award based on one innings of a series, he was rubbish in all the others.

Personally, I remember that series for being Tremletts debut. He got dropped after bowling pretty well and didnt return for 3 or 4 years!! Tremlett was the pick of the England bowlers regardless of statistics. He took 1/130 at the Oval on a pretty lifeless pitch, but broke his back to get something out of it, and his figures dont tell the tale.

What a player Tremlett was. How on gods green Earth did he only play for England a handful of times. :angry
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Slipstream » Fri Jun 10, 2016 2:04 am

sussexpob wrote:
Slipstream wrote:Anderson said in his book they started changing his action as early as 2003. He had finished the SA series and had a knee injury which came from being overbowled.

He was only in his first year of first class cricket having bowled 256 overs in 2002 for Lancs to 552 overs in Tests and ODIs in 2003. That was when many changes to his action started. From 2003 until March 06 he was bowling with a foreign action which caused him to lose pace and swing. 13 Tests. 2007 was about reverting to his old action which must have taken a while. Even then he was still looking for that magic ball.


I have not seen any references (apart from Anderson himself who states they tried to change him as soon as he got there in my forums) that suggests any major action changes were attempted in 2003, all the commentators (admittedly without referencing the information) seem to indicate it was later just before Cooley left. What we do know is that Troy Cooley was given a mission to teach the England bowlers how to reverse swing the ball, and maybe he tried to make changes to Anderson that allowed him to do that. Bowlers also change, I have read pieces in the last few days in responding to points on this thread that indicate pre-joining Lancs Anderson had a very natural and rhythmical action. Maybe at some stage in his early development at the county, or right at the start with England as Anderson indicates, this jittery action was forced upon him to generate more pace or swing.


I think Jones, Flintoff and Anderson bowled reverse swing before Cooley came along. They all came from counties with dry, abrasive wickets.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby greyblazer » Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:48 pm

Yes, Simon Jones and Flintoff could bowl reverse before Cooley. As far as Anderson's away record is concerned, it was 43.84 after the series against SA in 2010. Since then, it has dropped down to 32.98. Now, that is a result of picking up 115 wickets in that period at 28.06 at almost 4 wickets per match. The three away series that he has been below par during those six years were in SA, NZ and AUS. Good shows in AUS (once), UAE (twice), SL, WI and India.

Unfortunately, his critics don't see that. Just like his overall record, he has had to work very hard to get that average down. If that pattern continues, his away average should improve.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Slipstream » Thu Jun 16, 2016 3:10 am

greyblazer wrote:Yes, Simon Jones and Flintoff could bowl reverse before Cooley. As far as Anderson's away record is concerned, it was 43.84 after the series against SA in 2010. Since then, it has dropped down to 32.98. Now, that is a result of picking up 115 wickets in that period at 28.06 at almost 4 wickets per match. The three away series that he has been below par during those six years were in SA, NZ and AUS. Good shows in AUS (once), UAE (twice), SL, WI and India.

Unfortunately, his critics don't see that. Just like his overall record, he has had to work very hard to get that average down. If that pattern continues, his away average should improve.


Aus 06 - stress fracture in Mar 06 and didn't play any first class cricket until 10 overs v Hants in Sep 06. Reverted on his old action (should take over 300 overs) and had 24.1 overs in warm up match against South Australia. Ready to play Tests? NO.
Aus 13 - everything went wrong with the whole team apart from Broad and Stokes. The only 100 was made by Stokes. No excuses for Anderson not to have a better record than 14 wickets at 43.92

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Kevin Pietersen remains, whatever his army of critics say, the prize wicket for every opposition side, while James Anderson showed in Melbourne that he remains a skilful operator. England's early bowling on the fourth morning by Anderson, Broad and Ben Stokes was impressive. They created four chances before lunch but, partly due to Jonny Bairstow's obvious deficiencies with the gloves, two of them went begging.

That was away with Australia. I will finish this later.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:33 pm

greyblazer wrote: Unfortunately, his critics don't see that. Just like his overall record, he has had to work very hard to get that average down. If that pattern continues, his away average should improve.


Ha! I accept that my analysis may be flawed. But not because I'm not aware of the history. I must have watched as much of the England team as anyone else with a job over the last ten years.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby m@tt » Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:14 pm

sussexpob wrote:I remember watching the end of Courtney Walsh's career, I believe it was his last test. Somewhere near the end he bowled his 5000th test over, and the commentators present in the box discussed for about an hour what a fine achievement that was, and how it would probably never be beaten by another fast bowler. Walsh had a 17 year test career. I believe this record was close to being surpassed by McGrath, but he fell short. Its possible sometime this summer that Anderson will pass 3000 overs since 2010 alone. In a period of about 5 years of test cricket, apart from Broad who is not far behind, no pacer comes within a 1000 overs of Anderson. He has even outbowled any spinner too.


Never thought to look at just how many overs/balls Anderson has bowled over his career in comparison to everyone else.

Walsh finished with 30,019 deliveries in Tests. Anderson currently has 25,765 which is the highest for an Englishman, 10th of all Test bowlers, and 4th of quicks behind Walsh, McGrath (29,248) and Dev (27,740).

In 2012 and 2013, Anderson bowled over 3,000 deliveries each year; last year under 2,500. So if he can keep going for 3 more years he could surpass those three other quicks.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Slipstream » Sun Jun 19, 2016 1:36 am

m@tt wrote:
sussexpob wrote:I remember watching the end of Courtney Walsh's career, I believe it was his last test. Somewhere near the end he bowled his 5000th test over, and the commentators present in the box discussed for about an hour what a fine achievement that was, and how it would probably never be beaten by another fast bowler. Walsh had a 17 year test career. I believe this record was close to being surpassed by McGrath, but he fell short. Its possible sometime this summer that Anderson will pass 3000 overs since 2010 alone. In a period of about 5 years of test cricket, apart from Broad who is not far behind, no pacer comes within a 1000 overs of Anderson. He has even outbowled any spinner too.


Never thought to look at just how many overs/balls Anderson has bowled over his career in comparison to everyone else.

Walsh finished with 30,019 deliveries in Tests. Anderson currently has 25,765 which is the highest for an Englishman, 10th of all Test bowlers, and 4th of quicks behind Walsh, McGrath (29,248) and Dev (27,740).

In 2012 and 2013, Anderson bowled over 3,000 deliveries each year; last year under 2,500. So if he can keep going for 3 more years he could surpass those three other quicks.


Needs another 710 overs to have bowled the most by a seamer. Lots of calls to rest Anderson or wrap him in cotton wool and not play ODIs but he is so used to bowling lots of overs and when he bowls less he picks up injuries. In the last 5 years he has missed 5 Tests, 4 of them in 2015 with a side strain, stiff groin and a stiff calf.

Only two fast bowlers have bowled over 500 Test overs in consecutive years

Johnson
2008 585.0
2009 502.5

Anderson
2012 566.2
2013 531.5

Since 2000 in a 5 Test series (playing in all 5 Tests) Anderson has played more than anyone else, 6 series and Broad 5. Apart from the Ashes not many countries play 5 Test series. Steyn has never played more than a 3 Test series. I suppose he wouldn't have to bowl that many overs if he did play 5 Tests becauses of his strike rate. :)
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Dr Cricket » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:48 am

Surely it is fair to analyse the 4 test stuff than 5 test series.
Considering apart from the ashes and some India vs England series no one plays 5 test series.

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