Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:21 am

I think my version of it is from Mike Selvey, who is a friend of Cooley, so might have been more sympathetic to his version.

Fletcher did want pace in his side, he said so they could take wickets away from home. But he learned not to be dogmatic about it. Hoggard was allowed to be a medium fast bowler.

I don't remember Sidebottom being touted by anyone at the time of Fletcher. He'd had his chance and not impressed. This turned out to be a mistake, and he was a good Moores pick (though was said to be another who got injured striving for pace), but at the time, it didn't seem like Fletcher was stubbornly ignoring him; Sidebottom had no advocates. With hindsight, he would have been a great pick for the 2006-7 Ashes.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:43 am

For most of Fletcher's era, the pace attacks picked themselves. First Caddick/Gough/White/Cork, then Hoggard/Harmison/Jones/Flintoff. There were periods between and after those times when a couple of other bowlers were tried, including Anderson. England's never gave up on Anderson, despite some rather dismal performances (for whatever reason).

Tudor, Kirtley, Bicknall, Johnson, Plunkett, Giddens, Mahmood, Saggers, Kabir, Ormond, Mullally were the other pace options under Fletcher. Not all speed merchants, but it's on record that Fletcher was looking for 90mph bowlers, and it was that which accounted for Plunkett and Mahmood.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:54 am

Out of that list, how many of the slower bowlers did Fletcher commit to long term?

Johnson took 2 x 5 wicket hauls in 3 games and was dropped with an average of 17!!!!
Martin Bicknell took 10 wickets at 28 and never played again, despite the fact that England struggled in that series.
Saggers bowled pretty well, got three tests
Mullaly got one test against and had previously been in the team with as a decent performer.
Kabir Ali.... 5 wickets at 27, dropped
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:01 am

As for Sidebottom. I guess we can have a difference of opinion there, because I always remember his name being touted in the 2004-2007 period under Fletcher. You have to think that by 2005, Anderson was deemed unpickable, Simon Jones had played his last test, Flintoff's fitness was starting to become an issue, and Harmison was finished..... meanwhile in 2005, Sidebottom carried Notts to the county championship a year after they were promoted, and was averaging 20 odd.

After 2005 home summer, there is a lot of desperation. Even inside it, England went into the last test at the Oval with Giles, Hoggard, Harmison and Flintoff as the only recognised bowlers!! Collingwood was seen as the 5th bowler, but took one wicket in Fletchers time with the team in 18 matches!!!

No one in this two years averages under 30. Harmison is essentially finished and averages plummet to near 40 a wicket. Anderson is 44 per wicket (but only plays 20% of the time). Flintoff and Hoggard are in the 32 region, Giles was averaging a 100 and his career ends. Panesar emerges to fill the gap, but only after Blackwell/Udal also fail.

So who comes in to replace the fledging seam attack?

Jon Lewis got one game, takes 3/68 in one innnings, and never plays again.
Plunkett was a kid who had hardly played county cricket..... and he played 6 tests in 2005/06
Saj Mahmood incredibly plays 8 times and averages near 40.

I remember at the time people were begging for Sidebottom and Tremlett
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:01 am

sussexpob wrote:Out of that list, how many of the slower bowlers did Fletcher commit to long term?

Johnson took 2 x 5 wicket hauls in 3 games and was dropped with an average of 17!!!!
Martin Bicknell took 10 wickets at 28 and never played again, despite the fact that England struggled in that series.
Saggers bowled pretty well, got three tests
Mullaly got one test against and had previously been in the team with as a decent performer.
Kabir Ali.... 5 wickets at 27, dropped


Saggers looked out of his class and couldn't get sideways movement.

I think the rest got injured. Certainly Kabir and Johnson. Bicknell was near retirement. Fletcher found the fab four and subsequently didn't need any of these. You can argue that Duncan had nothing in reserve after 05, but the attack was lost so suddenly, Flintoff and Jones to injury, Harmi to a terminal decline. Anderson was the hope, but was injured too. That was pretty unpredictable.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:05 am

Much like Flower's regime though, Tremlett was always touted as having an attitude problem and being uncommitted to improvement, and Sidebottom was already seen as a failure.

I believe Sidebottom had a season in 2003 (about that time) where he averaged 20 or 21, and a few people started to call for him again then. After 2005 and the Notts championship win I think a lot of the "yeah but he failed before" had turned into, " he only had one test and he is the only person performing"
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:11 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Fletcher did want pace in his side, he said so they could take wickets away from home. But he learned not to be dogmatic about it


Might be a side point, but when Moores was at Sussex he signed Paul Hutchinson from Yorkshire as a hotly rated prospect in 2002. He, like Fletcher, became obsessed with getting people bowling as quick as possible and remodelled everyone. Not much of a success with that, Kirtley was called for throwing, Lewry's fitness was never anywhere near 50% let alone a 100 after...

Hutchinson meanwhile got much quicker, but moores destroyed his career. I believe Hutchinson himself said as much when Sussex released him a couple of years later after a car crash few years. Moores has referenced that before as a big learning curve about taking players for what they are. He accepts responsibility.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:13 am

Lewis got his only cap under Moores. But he is a great example of a player who was a monster at county level, probably more so than Sidebottom at the time. Maybe if Sidebottom's county performances demanded selection, then Lewis' did more? But you're remembering RS as someone who was blocked off, and JL as being overpromoted. Surely Lewis was another bowler Duncan didn't pick due to lack of pace.

I did a thread once on the what-if of England going into the 2006-7 Ashes with an attack of Tremlett, Sidebottom and Flintoff... I do remember Tremlett having his advocates. As I said, Duncan wasn't prepared for the loss of Hoggard, Harmi, etc.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:17 am

sussexpob wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Fletcher did want pace in his side, he said so they could take wickets away from home. But he learned not to be dogmatic about it


Might be a side point, but when Moores was at Sussex he signed Paul Hutchinson from Yorkshire as a hotly rated prospect in 2002. He, like Fletcher, became obsessed with getting people bowling as quick as possible and remodelled everyone. Not much of a success with that, Kirtley was called for throwing, Lewry's fitness was never anywhere near 50% let alone a 100 after...

Hutchinson meanwhile got much quicker, but moores destroyed his career. I believe Hutchinson himself said as much when Sussex released him a couple of years later after a car crash few years. Moores has referenced that before as a big learning curve about taking players for what they are. He accepts responsibility.


Hutchinson could stop taking wickets at the start of his career, but my recollection is he had problems before he left Yorks and was fading.

Mark Davies could be another bowler who was blackballed for lack of pace. Though injury didn't help.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:17 am

I think the rest got injured. Certainly Kabir and Johnson. Bicknell was near retirement. Fletcher found the fab four and subsequently didn't need any of these. You can argue that Duncan had nothing in reserve after 05, but the attack was lost so suddenly, Flintoff and Jones to injury, Harmi to a terminal decline. Anderson was the hope, but was injured too. That was pretty unpredictable.


Its not really the quality of attack that you blame Fletcher for. Of course, dealing with all of your team suddenly fall apart is not an easy thing to overcome.

The point, which I believe the fact you highlight above largely argues for me, is that when confronted with replacing his side Fletcher picked a couple of 20 year olds who had proved virtually nothing in County Cricket, who happened to come with the typical "fast/nasty/reverse swing" nonsense, along with another guy who he was forcing to bowl at 90mph but would later prove to be the best bowler in the world when bowling much slower and more controlled.

Had he picked Sidebottom, who did as well as any bowler for a couple of decades for England, he might have found that post 2005 period far more successful. Yet he was caught in this fantasy of pace and ignored all the proper bowlers around him.

Also I point I neglected above....I believe Ormond was picked not as a Medium Fast bowler, but because he also bowled off spin. He played one test I believe on a turning track in the oval, and one in the sub-continent. In both he took the newish ball, and then was asked to bowl spin.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:19 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote: Hutchinson could stop taking wickets at the start of his career, but my recollection is he had problems before he left Yorks and was fading


https://cricketarchive.com/Yorkshire/Pl ... eason.html

It does seem you are right, his wicket averages are still good, but clearly the wicket amount leaves me to assume he wasnt fit for years before he joined Sussex ( I believe 2002)
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:25 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Lewis got his only cap under Moores. But he is a great example of a player who was a monster at county level, probably more so than Sidebottom at the time. Maybe if Sidebottom's county performances demanded selection, then Lewis' did more? But you're remembering RS as someone who was blocked off, and JL as being overpromoted. Surely Lewis was another bowler Duncan didn't pick due to lack of pace.

I did a thread once on the what-if of England going into the 2006-7 Ashes with an attack of Tremlett, Sidebottom and Flintoff... I do remember Tremlett having his advocates. As I said, Duncan wasn't prepared for the loss of Hoggard, Harmi, etc.


http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/225266.html

I only knew it because I looked at the list before I posted, but Lewis played 1 test in 2006 at Home to Sri Lanka, before the Ashes disaster. He took three wickets in test that seems was dominated by spinners. Only Flintoff had better innings figures in the game out the seamers.

I didnt say Lewis was overpromoted at all, I simply stated he was part of the no pace brigade that Fletcher picked, but gave no true chance to.

I have always made it clear I favour actual performance over anything. Both would have been getting a long run in my England side.
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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Dr Cricket » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:37 am

Have to agree with Sussex, those years of my early watching test career, they were quite a few seam bowlers that didn't get a long run and was quite baffling considering england usually won or the bowlers did ok or well.

Although wouldn't surprise me if Jon Lewis got dropped because of the ODI performances.
He played 1 test and 13 odi, during that time England selection policy for the bowlers were quite odd.
the likes of Mahmood, plunkett got long runs and quite a few got dropped after a test or two.

Alex Wharf was another odd pick but never actually played a test, he was actually quite good in the odi and destroyed a strong indian team in an odi series in 2004.
but then loss form, injuries and cricinfo stating that he just wasn't good enough, no idea if he got tampered with by the coaches.

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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Dr Cricket » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:43 am

Kabir Ali is probably another that played 1 test and around 14 odi.
actually looking at that period of time, did look familiar to the 90s where players would play a game and then get dropped come back couple of games later etc.
Although this policy really only applied to the bowlers, the batting was stable.

Actually quite hard to explain why the bowlers got changed a lot considering in general england were kind of successful and the bowlers did well or ok, nothing to suggest they should be dropped from the team.

Have to remember England never lost a test series at home from 2001-2007, generally won away from home most of the time as well.

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Re: Jimmy Anderson: The Exception that proves the rule?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:43 am

sussexpob wrote:
So who comes in to replace the fledging seam attack?

Jon Lewis got one game, takes 3/68 in one innnings, and never plays again.
Plunkett was a kid who had hardly played county cricket..... and he played 6 tests in 2005/06
Saj Mahmood incredibly plays 8 times and averages near 40.

I remember at the time people were begging for Sidebottom and Tremlett


Sorry, I thought I read a negative tone about those being brought in, but you were contrasting the chances being given to the medium pacer against the fast bowlers.

Fletch thought Saj and Plunkett would bowl reverse swing on flat Asian pitches, and Lewis would be murdered. We never found out. Certainly, Lewis might as well not been picked for the chance he got, but he did play in ODIs, where he was primarily a new ball bowler. Perhaps he didn't impress in those and got shuffled in Tests. Fletch felt that Hoggy needed protection in conditions where the ball was doing little, maybe he thought he couldn't hide two medium pacers. Lewis got to play at Trent Bridge, an obvious pick for local conditions.
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