Greatest Ashes performances?

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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby yuppie » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:10 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Averages in Ashes games post WWI. Minimum 50 wickets.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling


Anderson averages 7 more than Siddle, and takes 10 more balls to get a wicket, and yet Siddle was not even considered for the Ashes all time team. :)

That list is certainly top heavy with Aussie bowlers. Hoggs record against England is very impressive.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby Gingerfinch » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:16 am

yuppie wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Averages in Ashes games post WWI. Minimum 50 wickets.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling


Anderson averages 7 more than Siddle, and takes 10 more balls to get a wicket, and yet Siddle was not even considered for the Ashes all time team. :)

That list is certainly top heavy with Aussie bowlers. Hoggs record against England is very impressive.


Anderson must have been picked for his overall record.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby yuppie » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:34 am

I think so Ginger.

Andersons Ashes record has to be the reason why so many Aussie supporters don't rate him.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:59 am

The 766 is up there with great Ashes performances. But his reputation as a performer in these contests has been undermined by his returns outside that series, so I wouldn't put him in the Ashes XI. For example, he is the worst averaging England Ashes captain ever, worse than Brearley. One offsets the other. There's a lot of competition for the opener spot: Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Morris, Boycott, Hayden, Langer, Warner, Taylor, Slater...

These are stats for openers since WWI, minimum 1000 runs.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=batting

Mine: Morris/Hutton/Bradman/Hammond/Barrington/Waugh/Gilchrist/Lillee/Laker/McGrath/Alderman
Sutcliffe/Botham/Warne/O'Reilly/Knott/Thomson/Willis.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:05 am

yuppie wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Averages in Ashes games post WWI. Minimum 50 wickets.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling


Anderson averages 7 more than Siddle, and takes 10 more balls to get a wicket, and yet Siddle was not even considered for the Ashes all time team. :)

That list is certainly top heavy with Aussie bowlers. Hoggs record against England is very impressive.


The stats suggest how legendary Harris might have been.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby GarlicJam » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:12 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:The stats suggest how legendary Harris might have been.

Suggest. Harris could have been an all-time great. Circumstance and cartilage (or lack of) robbed him of an extensive and glorious, I reckon, test career.

Surprising, too, just how good an Ashes career Hogg had - especially when you consider that this was at a time that Aus were getting routinely hammered by England. The 41 wickets in a series figure (I hope that that is correct) is still in my head.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:31 am

Ran out of puff a bit towards the end, but pretty hostile in 78-79, admittedly on helpful pitches.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby Durhamfootman » Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:19 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:According to my search, he's played one Ashes Test at TB and took ten wickets.

who Santiago?

Can't be, surely? He must have played ashes cricket there a lot.... as a ground it's a home banker

If true (and I have no reason to doubt you) I find that rather surprising.

how many ashes wickets does he have?
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby yuppie » Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:19 pm

89 in 27 matches.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:33 pm

He was injured in 2015 when Broad took 8-fer (otherwise Broad wouldn't have got 8 and Australia wouldn't have made 60). He took ten in 2013 on a lousy pitch. 2009 there wasn't a TB Test. 2005 he wasn't one of the fab four. 2001 he hadn't made his debut.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby KipperJohn » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:08 pm

There seems to be a crossover on this thread between one off performances and those over time. One could go on for ages about significant individual events, perhaps in just one match or a series- all time greats is something entirely different.

Tyson, Laker, Massey, even dear old Ian Bell are just a small example of outstanding performances in a narrow time frame.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby sussexpob » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:17 pm

KipperJohn wrote:There seems to be a crossover on this thread between one off performances and those over time. One could go on for ages about significant individual events, perhaps in just one match or a series- all time greats is something entirely different.

Tyson, Laker, Massey, even dear old Ian Bell are just a small example of outstanding performances in a narrow time frame.


Only natural. Some performances in isolated matches change series. Some performances in isolated series help win against the odds. Others performed consistently well in careers. All deserve mention.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby sussexpob » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:24 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:The stats suggest how legendary Harris might have been.


In OZ 2013, he didnt need to do much. Like Stuart Clarke at Adelaide in 2006/07, Rhino could see a team mate was creating the pressure at the other end, and he just kept it tight and benefitted from the pressure. Not downplaying it, in both cases it was very sensible and tactically sound to exploit that environment by not trying anything too dramatic, and both go hand in hand. Yet, the hostile nature of Johnson seems a bit more isolated, that it might have mattered more to Rhino that England were being routed by Johnson and getting out cheaply to him, than Johnson benefiting from his stingyness.

Harris in England 2013 deserves worthy mention, he bowled pretty much excellently. Had pace, bounce and more importantly, control. Continued to test the English batsman and largely dominate most. All apart from Bell, who essentially won England the series.

Probably the lowest quality series of my lifetime mind. England's top order were very under par, and Australia's team werent much to write home about.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby sussexpob » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:40 pm

I think Adam Gilchrist's effort in Edgbaston test of 2001 will not largely be remembered for any particular reason, but I always think its largely forgotten in England how much the pre-series talk before that test was one of genuine hope at the time. The legacy of Waugh's Australia would prove itself in the 3-4 years after that series, but at the time they had lost in Sri Lanka in late 1999, lost in India in 2000-01, won only one test in 3 in Pakistan versus a team not really fancied that much in about 2000 by memory, and nearly lost to Brian Lara (sorry, the West Indies) in 1999 too. There was a perception that the Aussies were strong at home, but on the road they could be beaten. And a sense that what Fletcher was doing for England was bringing with it a hope to compete vs Australia in that series.

England had been in trouble until Stewart laid down one of the biggest 10th wicket partnerships in history with Caddick, and about 300 seemed a par score in the conditions with something in there for the bowlers and some turn already on day 1. By memory, Australia were about 3 or 4 down for under 150 at one point and England looked dangerous, before Waugh and Martyn had a partnership. That started to take the game away, but it was Gilchrist's brutal effort that had England running for the hills. England never wrestled back control of the series after that, they were utterly destroyed for the rest.

The brutality felt a significant statement. The brashness of his played displayed a confidence that helped Australia control the series, and also had the effect of fracturing the willpower of an English team already mindful that they had been dominated by the Aussies for over a decade. It defined both teams for the series. HAd Gilchrist been sent of early, England might have retained some belief they could have competed, but after that there was no chance. You felt everyone watching was united in deflation.

I was actually there. I went for a beer with Gilchrist just warming up, and remember coming back to my mates and looking at the scoreboard with disbelief. Id only been gone what seemed like a minute, and Gilchrist had scored the best part of a 100. 150 off about 130 balls by memory.
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Re: Greatest Ashes performances?

Postby sussexpob » Thu Nov 30, 2017 3:57 pm

As for one off bowling innings, Id have to say McGrath at Lords in 1997 is the best to memory for a single innings. Again, also a performance that seemed to shatter whatever confidence England had rustled up among themselves at the time. It was a test match that followed what would be one of those isolated victories that gave England some hope, as Thorpe and Hussain had dominated the Aussies at Edgbaston against the pre tour expectations, and England were 1-0 up.

England would learn a valuable lesson after the first session at Lords. Dont give Glenn McGrath a seaming pitch with a bit of bounce in it. I still remember the shock of watching it, England all out in the 70s, and McGrath taking 8-30. The first 10-15 runs were a bit of a phony war, McGrath getting a feel for the slope as he initially bowled a bit wide, then he got one to scream into the edge of Butcher that flew over the slips, and after that it all spiralled out of control. He whistled past Butchers edge twice more, then set him up for the inswinger that he inside edged to short leg, and the rest may as well have padded up together and waited at the corner of the pitch, it seemed over in seconds.

Arguably the best bowler of his generation, of many generations, at his accurate best. England were shell shocked after that.
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