Ashwin

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Re: Ashwin

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:10 pm

not sure what your point is considering he got dropped 4 yrs ago not sure what Red was saying in the OP got anything to do with him getting dropped 4 yrs.
it is like saying Root can't be a great player because he got dropped once in his career.
or Smith for the matter both got dropped from the Test team.
Need to check if Kohli got dropped in the team, not sure on him yet.

players get dropped from the team it does happen.
Anyway I am not claiming Ashwin is an all time great or anything but it is ridiculous people are seriously attacking him on something he did 4 yrs ago and that too on a limited sample size.
Suspect if india pace bowlers stay fit many people will have eggs in their faces since I personally think the spinners will do well overseas this time around although i have no idea which spinner will play, probably ashwin will be the spinner.
Suspect Ashwin won't do much bowling considering he probably won't need to if Shami, BK and Ishant bowl well.
the fact both spinners were not needed in Kolkata speak volumes since in the past both of them would have to bowl 30-40 overs plus in those conditions and be expected to take 5-7 wickets in the game.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby backfootpunch » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:15 pm

Dr Cricket wrote:not sure what your point is considering he got dropped 4 yrs ago not sure what Red was saying in the OP got anything to do with him getting dropped 4 yrs.
it is like saying Root can't be a great player because he got dropped once in his career.
or Smith for the matter both got dropped from the Test team.
Need to check if Kohli got dropped in the team, not sure on him yet.

The point is that there is still a chance of him not playing now

But you always ignore the point of other peoples post and make some ludicrous comparison that doesn't relate at all to the conversation, which I think is about ashwin not 3 batsmen
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:24 pm

TBH I expect ashwin to start overseas, the only reason the chance of him not playing is because india got another spinner that could easily play, just like one of Vijay, Rahul and Dhawan won't play.
Although I wish Dhawan wasn't even in the frame for selection since he would pretty much fail anyway, don't mind him being in the squad though since it would make Vijay and rahul score runs to make sure they are in the team for future games.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Adi » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:30 pm

Neither Ashwin nor Jaddu are match winners abroad. Jaddu has enjoyed slightly better success in conditions not favorable to spin.

Ashwin is unmatched overall. He runs through the opposition by taking 5 wicket hauls more frequently. Also he is more skillful or a complete spinner. Jadeja though good is still not in the class of Ashwin as a complete spin bowler. Jaddu relies more on accuracy, Ashwin offers better variations and better skills as spinner. Ashwin is a complete spinner.

I feel warm-up fixture performance will be key in deciding which spinner will get first go as both are not good overseas. The other factor that will depend is whether the SA squad has more lefties or righties.

What weighs in favor of Ashwin is that there is negligible difference in performance between him and Jaddu on non spin friendly wickets and more importantly Ashwin has relatively much better batting skills to face the South African pacers on those wickets than Jaddu has in facing pacers over there. With Ajinkya Rahane out of touch and Saha having a bad tour of OZ before as well as untested on such quality pace attack in the conditions he will face, Indian selectors will look to consider batting skills of the spinner they will pick.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:43 pm

Can't get Statsguru to give me records against top eight bats so can't confirm or deny suggestion Ashwin takes more lower order wickets and Jadeja more top order.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:48 pm

TBH Ashwin Generally cleans up the tails in Asia, with Jadeja getting the tough top order batsman out.
the only real batsman Ashwin dominated is Sangakkara and Williamson.
Jadeja generally been the one taking the top order batsman out but then again that could be purely on the pressure both spinners apply bowling together and it won't happen when one of them is missing.
Still find it crazy so much is being made off Jadeja/Ashwin poor overseas record when they play so few overseas/Outside asia and that too early in their careers.
it is bit like saying next year Woakes isn't allowed to play cricket outside england because he is so crap in his first few series overseas.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Gingerfinch » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:51 pm

I think the point is, until Ashwin proves himself overseas like Harby and Kumble, then he cannot be regarded as India's best ever spinner.

As for all-rounders. I'd have Dev well ahead of him.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Adi » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:56 pm

Gingerfinch wrote:I think the point is, until Ashwin proves himself overseas like Harby and Kumble, then he cannot be regarded as India's best ever spinner.

As for all-rounders. I'd have Dev well ahead of him.


I won't rate Ashwin as India's best spinner ever. India's best spinner should be capable of bowling well in all conditions. I haven't watched the famous Indian spin trio of yesteryear's, but whoever has watched them talks highly of each of the trio.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:01 pm

Gingerfinch wrote:I think the point is, until Ashwin proves himself overseas like Harby and Kumble, then he cannot be regarded as India's best ever spinner.

As for all-rounders. I'd have Dev well ahead of him.

kumble was awful overseas in his first part of the career.
Harby wasn't that great either.
TBH my point was really based on why is their always talk of Ashwin shouldn't play overseas anymore because he failed in his first tour.
Although TBH only Shanky really makes that point.

Although agree with your point Ashwin needs to prove himself overseas, but don't agree with the point that he shouldn't get the opportunity now because he failed first time around.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Gingerfinch » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:06 pm

Dr Cricket wrote:
Gingerfinch wrote:I think the point is, until Ashwin proves himself overseas like Harby and Kumble, then he cannot be regarded as India's best ever spinner.

As for all-rounders. I'd have Dev well ahead of him.

kumble was awful overseas in his first part of the career.
Harby wasn't that great either.
TBH my point was really based on why is their always talk of Ashwin shouldn't play overseas anymore because he failed in his first tour.
Although TBH only Shanky really makes that point.

Although agree with your point Ashwin needs to prove himself overseas, but don't agree with the point that he shouldn't get the opportunity now because he failed first time around.


I didn't say that.

Back to harby and Kumble. I don't know their records, but they always seemed to well over here, and in Aus. Of course the stats may not say that.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:08 pm

Adi wrote:
Gingerfinch wrote:I think the point is, until Ashwin proves himself overseas like Harby and Kumble, then he cannot be regarded as India's best ever spinner.

As for all-rounders. I'd have Dev well ahead of him.


I won't rate Ashwin as India's best spinner ever. India's best spinner should be capable of bowling well in all conditions. I haven't watched the famous Indian spin trio of yesteryear's, but whoever has watched them talks highly of each of the trio.


yeah don't think Ashwin is the greatest spinner ever in india, doesn't seem to have the patience to be successful in all conditions and it should be noted he does have more spin friendly decks, essentially the stereotype of indian pitches being flat gone out of the system now, generally scoring runs in india is regarded tough work now and playing spin across the teams are not that great anymore so he basically been getting wickets far to easily without doing much work for them.
So I won't rate him for the best spinner, but he surely rated for the best all rounder since I personally feel that all rounders shouldn't get scrutinised for their bowling/batting since they provide balance and in reality if you have a bowler taking 300 odd wickets that can score hundreds and average 30 odd that world class irrespective of where or how he takes the wickets, basically means the team could pick extra batsman, spinners, bowlers or whatever.

He definitely in the top 2 all rounders in india and will be regarded as an all time great indian all rounder Dev will obviously be higher than him at the moment because dev did it for a longer period of time and was a key player for india in all conditions.
but not sure the gap between two of them are that big in terms of all round contribution.
when it comes to spinner then obviously you have to look at the way he bowls and how he contributes in all conditions and Ashwin got a long way to go in being an all time great indian spinner.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:11 pm

Stats of Indian spinners outside of Asia, listed by SR, minimum 40 wickets.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... pe=bowling
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:17 pm

Gingerfinch wrote:
Dr Cricket wrote:
Gingerfinch wrote:I think the point is, until Ashwin proves himself overseas like Harby and Kumble, then he cannot be regarded as India's best ever spinner.

As for all-rounders. I'd have Dev well ahead of him.

kumble was awful overseas in his first part of the career.
Harby wasn't that great either.
TBH my point was really based on why is their always talk of Ashwin shouldn't play overseas anymore because he failed in his first tour.
Although TBH only Shanky really makes that point.

Although agree with your point Ashwin needs to prove himself overseas, but don't agree with the point that he shouldn't get the opportunity now because he failed first time around.


I didn't say that.

Back to harby and Kumble. I don't know their records, but they always seemed to well over here, and in Aus. Of course the stats may not say that.


Yeah I know you didn't just essentially putting that point out because it does prop up a lot in india and elsewhere in the media.

Kumble was bad originally and he worked on his overseas game and brought it down to a respectable average,
basically Kumble is the spin version of Anderson.
both got a very high average down to a respectable numbers at the end of their careers.
Harby averages 38 overseas but did win 1 or 2 games overseas/outside asia though but I personally don't think he was better than Ashwin.
found harby toothless and was poor when he didn't get an early wicket or wasn't in rhythm, personally think Ashwin is more reliable and I know Shanky will attack me soon for saying that.
Really outside the names Adi was referring too, not many indian spinners do well overseas.

Ashwin basically getting destroyed because of averaging 55 in Australia basically the only place you can argue he played outside asia in a reasonable sample size and Harby averages 70 in Australia.

Really don't see why Ashwin can't be a kumble and improve away record although Kumble had it easier since he didn't face the pressure from media like the players do now.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:20 pm

Harbhajan numbers are crazy very surprising considering Kumble was mostly number 1 spinner overseas during the early part of his career and then when he was the sole spinner he struggled to be a consistent force because of the problems I mentioned above.
it was really because of those problems of why india dropped him and starting picking Amit Mishra in 2011 england tour, pragyan ojha and then the likes of Ashwin and Jadeja were bloodied in.
probably need to look closely at harby numbers but that is very surprising.
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Re: Ashwin

Postby Dr Cricket » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:24 pm

Also Harby was unique in that he was a far better spinner early in his career and not the same bowler later on and looking at that list most of his performace came early in his career and when he was bad he didn't play overseas much barring that good SA tour in 2010/11 which was more of an exception at the time.
very odd considering spinners meant to get better as time goes on and not the other way round.
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