England from 526 to 1000.

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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:33 pm

was that the match where Nasser kept pointing to the number on his back when celebrating his century? He'd been getting some stick with suggestions that he shouldn't be batting at 3, or something
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:40 pm

I remember an ex cricketer talking about Lloyds tenure (might have been Goughie, but not sure) and recalling being sent to find him for instructions when the wheels were coming off in a match, and he said he found him out the back of the pavilion with his head in hands, rocking back and forth, and moaning to himself.

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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:19 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:was that the match where Nasser kept pointing to the number on his back when celebrating his century? He'd been getting some stick with suggestions that he shouldn't be batting at 3, or something


That was an ODI (at Trent Bridge I think because I reckon I was there). I'm guessing v Zimbabwe in 2003, but I'll look.
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:26 pm

He only got one ODI ton, so it must have been v India at Lord's in 2002.
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:15 pm

fair enough, cheers Arthur. Since you mentioned it, I do now remember that he wasn't in whites when that happened, so it couldn't have been a test match
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:17 pm

No number on his back in a Test!
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby Durhamfootman » Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:22 am

true

told you I was dim
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:06 am

June 5-8, 1998 at Edgbaston. England beat Australia by 9 wickets.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1605 ... tland-1997

From the poisonous heart of the David Lloyd years comes one of England's most memorable and gratifying wins. And while not in the same league as Gooch's miraculous triumph in Jamaica, it is one of the least expected. This was the era when England only won dead Ashes rubbers at the summation of heartbreaking examinations of their inferiority. And there was still time in 1997 for England to win another dead Test at the Oval, such was the ferocity of the Australian retaliation to this defeat. Yet, the sheer joy and astonishment of England's opening Test Ashes win of 1998 remains a potent if guilty pleasure.

In spite of their recent struggles, in 1997 it felt possible to believe that England might still have a good side if only they could all be got out into the middle. Which they mostly did in Birmingham. Darren Gough and Andy Caddick had the ball and Graham Thorpe was in favour. You might baulk at Mark Ealham, but hell, he made an unbeaten fifty in England's first innings, and took three wickets in Australia's second.

England had won 2-0 in New Zealand that winter with Mike Atherton and Gough rampant but there was no real feeling that this time the Ashes were going to be different. Yet England tore the throat out of the Australian upper order on the first morning with a vivacity and ferocity that was thrilling. Gough, Caddick and Devon Malcolm had Australia 54-8. And of course there was a recovery of sorts as there always was with Australia. Shane Warne made 47 at number nine, in a portent of his tenacity which would be written all over the thriller of 2005. Gough in particular was superb, very much at the epitome of his pugnacious cliche, all cheeky, oafish aggression with a huge talent for swinging the ball late away from the bat, and unforgivably overweight. Caddick had the best figures of 5-50, but it's Gough that I remember that first day for, taking two overs to get to full speed like an old steam train struggling uphill, then three overs of cruising magnificently, blowing abundant black smoke all over Edgbaston before prematurely running out of puff and allowing Warne to dig in.

Australia were gone inside 32 overs for their 118, the second highest score being Mike Kasprowicz's 17. Of course, no one expected the English batters to maintain the advantage their bowlers had wrought. And again we were nonplussed. From 50-3, Nasser Hussain and Thorpe added 288 runs for the fourth wicket. For those too young to remember, it felt pertinent to imagine that this is how it might have looked to see Peter May and Colin Cowdrey bat on a flat pitch on a sunny day in the 1950s. Or possibly even like watching the Waughs bat. They were untouchable. They have played quite a few gutsier innings, but maybe none of such commanding ease. It wasn't supposed to be possible against the tormenting mystery of Shane Warne.

England reached stumps on day one at 200-3, having dismissed the tourists for 118. It was a great opening to the series and the next morning a wonderful time to scrutinise the national press. Of course the Aussies resisted in their second innings with tons for Mark Taylor and Greg Blewitt, but there has to be a little to chew on in a truly sumptuous Test win, and once Taylor went with the score on 327-2, the rest of the batting made way for a further 155 runs leaving only 118 to chase on day four. Which Atherton and Stewart knocked off at five an over.

Of course it was a false dawn, but hindsight offers it as a brief premonition of the glory of 2005. And this was probably a better Australian side. England drew at Lord's, meaning they went into the third Test 1-0 to the good. Which frankly sounds like I've made it up. But then were beaten heavily in Manchester, Leeds and Nottingham, setting up England's dead rubber bounce at the Oval. By Headingley, Andy Smith was in for Andy Caddick and by Trent Bridge, Gough was injured again. Peter Martin bowled at the Oval and Mark Ramprakash was back and the dream was over for another two years. But for a few weeks at least in 1997, maybe a little piece of grit impaired the usual clarity of Steve Waugh's imperious thousand yard stare. And for that brief, transitory, possibly notional relief, I remain thankful.
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby sussexpob » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:59 am

We all take away our different views about these types of series, they are a long time ago now, and memories have a habit of reinforcing or blocking out certain things to fit an overall historical narrative of an event; but from a personal perspective, I seem to remember there was a considerable hype that England could beat Australia once the Ashes came around. There seemed at the time a bit of expectation that England were on the up, a lot of discussion about relative last performances in series vs Windies (England could have won that 2-2 drawn series, Australia narrowly beat the Windies in the winter before 3-2....), and a drowning noise coming off the back of England's whitewashing of Australia in the Texaco Cup. The latter factor I seemingly remember sending people into overdrive, as one match was won by the Brilliance of a 18/19 year old Ben Hollioake annihilating the attack around the park, his brother was seen as a great prospect too, and Ali Brown also crashed England's fastest ever 50 I think. There was a certain flair and lack of fear about England in that series that seemed out of place in an era of frankly terrible performance. We chased down (for those days at least) a massive total in one game, and with seeming ease.

There was also probably a misguided belief that Australia werent that good. Mark Taylor scored a 100 in this match (I think?), but it saved his career; hed gone something like 2 years without a century, and was considered no longer good enough. Michael Slater was untouchable for selection at this point, I seem to remember him signing for Derbyshire in order to get some form under his belt, but he was annihilated in county cricket (average was terribly low, around the 15-20 mark by memory for the season). Greg Blewitt hadnt really turned that many heads, and was moving up to one drop after a string of failures to fill the position. Michael Bevan had looked totally out of sorts in test cricket. There were calls for Healy to make way for a younger guy. Paul Reiffel had been patchy, McGrath had yet to transcend into something brilliant. Kapserwicz hasnt taken a wicket in his first few tests and bowled appallingly. Id have to guess this is a period where Mark Waugh was on the way down. Ricky Ponting was seen as a prodigy, but at the time seemed drunk 90% of the time, and had a habit of urinating on members of the public. Lots of the generation to come (Langer, Hayden, Martyn) had failed badly in their first opportunities.

Warney and Waugh were obviously fearsome. McGrath is a name on paper that in hindsight was world class. The rest were players you thought you had a chance of getting into. Id add Matthew Elliott as a player to fear, because I think at this time he was crushing records in the Shield, and was seen as a potential legend. Not ever sure what happened to Elliott..... he scored big at Lords and Headingley (I think) in this series, had a decent few tests before to start his career..... then sometime in 1998ish, forgot how to pick up a bat.
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby sussexpob » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:09 pm

The first test win did send things into overdrive. Your take on the match seems to fit my memory..... which remembers Nasser Hussain stroking Warne around like he was a nobody. Confident stroke play, calmness at the crease, and authority from both him and Thorpe. It felt different that time, only made worse by the hype mentioned above. The bubble burst for me at Lords within an hour. There was something about that McGrath spell, the result aside, that said all you needed to know about the lasting nature of England's recovery. He just kept bowling it in the right areas without great movement (it was a test played in perennial rain or cloud, but it was just typical McGrath, hint of seam down the slope stuff) and England just didnt look up to the task technically.

In fact, I think every single one of Australia's seamers took their turn after that to massacre England. Kaspo got a 7 for, McGrath an 8 for, Dizzy a 7/8 for... all in back to back tests. And Steve Waugh just kept on batting. I think he scored 3? hundreds, two in the same tests, and 1 or 2 near hundreds. I remember the joy in Devon Malcolm castling him at TB, only on some misguided belief that England had a change then to attack Australia higher 300s score on a decent pitch (Reiffel and Gillespie took a partnerhip e another 50 odd runs, so the joy didnt last).
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby sussexpob » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:12 pm

It ended up a series of could of beens. The most disheartening part of the series was in the 4th test at HEadingly. Overcast sky, helpful pitch, Elliot edges at 50 odd for 4, Graham Thorpe drops a dolly.... he makes 200 and puts the series to sleep. Ponting at the other end couldnt get bat on ball for the first session, and had edged a few all over the place. It felt like if that moment had gone for England, maybe they could have taken something from the series.

It seems the difference between Australia and England for a long time..... Australia never needed a second chance to grind you into dust, England always let advantages slip.
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:18 pm

Well remembered point about Mark Taylor, that was a big talking point going into the series. And good point about the Texaco Trophy performances which bore the notions of a fresh start and hope. But Australia had actually won in WI a couple of years before which represented the beginning of a new epoch for the game. My recollection was that there was more hope about Aussie weaknesses going into 2005. There was always some delusional optimism going into every Ashes series back when they used to win every time.
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby sussexpob » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:20 pm

I wonder where the Dead Rubber 6th features on your radar of good results in this period. The nature of the dead rubber aside, it was a classic test, finished in blazing sunshine of an August bank holiday Saturday afternoon, and a very narrow margin. Tuffnel bowling like warney on a killer dust bowl...... it might have been down to the depression of 2-5th test, but that win bowling them out for a 100, felt glorious at the time.
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby sussexpob » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:33 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Well remembered point about Mark Taylor, that was a big talking point going into the series. And good point about the Texaco Trophy performances which bore the notions of a fresh start and hope. But Australia had actually won in WI a couple of years before which represented the beginning of a new epoch for the game. My recollection was that there was more hope about Aussie weaknesses going into 2005. There was always some delusional optimism going into every Ashes series back when they used to win every time.


I wouldnt say it was Aussie weakness in 2005, more England felt they had a team that had improved enough to compete at home with Australia. In 1997, it felt the Australia team just werent that good, and could be exploited..... in 2005, they had a magnificent team, far better imo, but England had players who were playing at a top level, and prospects coming off the belt that had something about them. England in 2005 were peaking.

Of course though, you are 100% correct in the comment about delusion. In 1999 we expected to compete (and tbf, it wasnt a disasterous tour, we could have drawn all the way to the last day).....I think the main one was in 2001 though, there seemed a very misguided idea that England were ready in that series to compete with Australia due to Caddick and Goughs home seasons in 2000 (they were unplayable against bad opposition) and the Fletcher era bringing with it a more solid batting outlook...... that felt like the most stinging of the Ashes series to take pre whitewash. Australia were world class, but we were a much better team that we performed. 2003 away came with expectation, but not personally..... I think at the time I largely agreed with McGrath's bi-annual 5-0 prediction.
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Re: England from 526 to 1000.

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Mar 27, 2019 12:40 pm

Tufnell's bowling was such a rush. Not sure Lloyd wanted him in the side much. It was the only Test he played that summer. He did something similar v WI at the Oval in 1991.

Tuffers played 12 Tests at home (five at the Oval) where he averaged 29, and 30 away where he averaged 43.

McGrath took 36 wickets at under 20 in that series. It hadn't occurred to me he wasn't a world class bowler going into 1997. He had 120 odd Test wickets going into the series, but they were at 24, so he would reduce that.
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