How good are India?

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Re: How good are India?

Postby sussexpob » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:03 pm

yuppie wrote:That loss in Sril Lanka was not helped by the Gillespie Waugh collision in the first test match. If we are talking about the 99 series which Australia lost 1-0

That was were Gillespie broke his leg after colliding with S Waugh. Neither Waugh or Gillespie played any part of the second innings. Still one of the most sickening things to happen on a test match field. Who knows how the first test would have finished, but loosing your best bat and pretty handy bowler for both second inningswas a huge blow. Still only lost by 6 wickets though


I think it happened at the end of the First innings, but yes, who can forget the picture of Steve Waugh sitting in hospital looking like he'd just tried to chat up Mike Tyson's missus. Was tragic.... Waugh's skull is supposed to have hit Jason Gillespie's leg so hard, it snapped his leg in two, must have been unbelievable pain. Australia were bowled out for nothing, and I think Sri Lanka then chased a 100 runs with ease. You could say one batsman could make that 200, and you have a game, who knows.

I actually remember the second test very vividly, because Herath debuted, and at the time all the hype was about Murali and his variations and unorthodox style, but Herath at the time had this very weird knuckle ball that no one could pick, and the commentators were all proclaiming him to be the next best thing (he not long after disappeared for about 10 years). Contrary to your memory, I think Sri Lanka had made a sizeable lead in the 2nd innings (in fact, both teams failed to score 300 having looked, then Sri Lanka put an opening partership up to take there lead to 130-140 without loss, so youd have to say they were favourites).

Third test was a wash out, only one innings got under way, but the pitch was seen as dangerously venomous, and Australia had put a decent total on the board.... but the game never got going.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby yuppie » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:15 pm

Those test series in SL are often forgotten about in Australia, but they were memorable matches. The 1999 series for that collision, in which Waugh just re enforced his image of being about the toughest thing ever to play cricket. And then the second series which was truly absorbing cricket. Its a shame they seem to have been forgotten by the Australian public.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby sussexpob » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:33 pm

yuppie wrote:Those test series in SL are often forgotten about in Australia, but they were memorable matches. The 1999 series for that collision, in which Waugh just re enforced his image of being about the toughest thing ever to play cricket. And then the second series which was truly absorbing cricket. Its a shame they seem to have been forgotten by the Australian public.


Waugh played the rest of the series, didnt he? With a bit of gaffer tap holding his face together :clap I think the memory of that series that overrides all, was thinking at any minute Australia were going to produce a series defining moment, but Sri Lanka really kept on top of them in the first two tests, and the rally never came. I dont think I must have caught the 2004 series, it doesnt resonate in my memory bank at all, but I was always a Waugh fan, so when he quit (I think this is Pontings first series as captain, maybe) I stopped making such an effort to watch games live as much.

The Windies series is one that lives on in memory.Id have to say in all the results in the post 1995 span, Australia's failure to win in Windies in the late 90s has to go down as their worst series. Ok, so Lara was a one man wrecking ball, and Ambrose and Walsh rolled back the years a bit (but, in many ways that felt a bit more like a few Australians simply werent at the races with the bat, Mark Waugh and Ian Healy by memory looked absolutely gone at the time), but there was nothing else in that team approaching the Aussies class. They should have really annihilated them 4-0.

I guess you could say the same of the New Zealand series in about 2000 or 2001 (actually, has to be post 2001 India series, otherwise it falls in the 16 win test streak). Much like in Sri Lanka, Australia never really were able to apply their best game faces. The first test by memory rained a lot, Australia wracked up runs in between, and a sporting compromise was made where by New Zealand declared their first innings well short, Australia smashed about ten overs to set a target, and both tried to win the game in day 5, which made a bore draw fun. Australia never finished New Zealand off, mind. New Zealand must have been fairly close to the target but didnt push for loss of wickets. Second test was a wash out, and the third test Australia were saved by the rain, as I think New Zealand were few a couple of wickets for the series with with the Aussies well out of the target chase. And New Zealand werent a great team, it was a poor result.

India 2001, ok, that was an Indian miracle I dont think will be repeated much. Laxman and Dravid knocked Australia so silly, it was a rare occasion where the Aussies seemed to have no fight left in them in the second innings. And the test after, Australia nearly fought back for the series, but just fell short.... that was an epic series in many ways, while the matches in the early stages took a while to develop the 2nd innings were great.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:16 pm

That India series was great, and it took something sensational to beat that Aussie team. But it seems to me that the umpires went along with the swing of the series from Australia to India when India were bowling, and that closed down some of the usual Aussie resilience.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby yuppie » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:44 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:That India series was great, and it took something sensational to beat that Aussie team. But it seems to me that the umpires went along with the swing of the series from Australia to India when India were bowling, and that closed down some of the usual Aussie resilience.



Yes the Harby Hat trick being the perfect example of that. I believe that was the last time that umpire was ever chosen for a test match.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby sussexpob » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:08 pm

yuppie wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:That India series was great, and it took something sensational to beat that Aussie team. But it seems to me that the umpires went along with the swing of the series from Australia to India when India were bowling, and that closed down some of the usual Aussie resilience.



Yes the Harby Hat trick being the perfect example of that. I believe that was the last time that umpire was ever chosen for a test match.


The return fixture in 2004 was similar, in Aussies favour. Kimble to Symonds rings out in memory
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Re: How good are India?

Postby yuppie » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:50 pm

sussexpob wrote:
yuppie wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:That India series was great, and it took something sensational to beat that Aussie team. But it seems to me that the umpires went along with the swing of the series from Australia to India when India were bowling, and that closed down some of the usual Aussie resilience.



Yes the Harby Hat trick being the perfect example of that. I believe that was the last time that umpire was ever chosen for a test match.


The return fixture in 2004 was similar, in Aussies favour. Kimble to Symonds rings out in memory



Absolute.

The Harby one just comes to mind as it was a hat trick where only one wicket should have been given.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby sussexpob » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:15 am

Not reviewed the series footage in a few years, but by memory, the crowds in India at stages were huge, and very loud and passionate..... seems Test cricket went downhill quickly from the early to mid 2000s....
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Re: How good are India?

Postby yuppie » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:49 pm

sussexpob wrote:Not reviewed the series footage in a few years, but by memory, the crowds in India at stages were huge, and very loud and passionate..... seems Test cricket went downhill quickly from the early to mid 2000s....



A huge shame.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby ddb » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:44 pm

Crowds still decent in the main stadiums but not in the purpose built ones far out of town.

I think it's a different feel, here in England we all want to go to tests for the day out as well, that's not the same in 40 degree heat with poor ground management and organisation with potentially 2+ hrs travel.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby Dr Cricket » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:31 am

sussexpob wrote:Not reviewed the series footage in a few years, but by memory, the crowds in India at stages were huge, and very loud and passionate..... seems Test cricket went downhill quickly from the early to mid 2000s....


My theory is that the lack of Test championship, lack of marquee test matches/series involving india, Remember England and india hardly played in those days, actually embarrassing how late ECB were in recognising india rise how they didn't see it in 1996 is beyond me.
Remember reading a very good book in Hull university around 3 or 4 am when I was bored during one of my all nighter in the library, basically was a book on the England failed attempt to get the 1996 cricket world cup and basically the writer was piss about how india brought the world cup and it was a disgrace it wasn't held in england and from that book it was apparent many in ECB still held that view probably explained why they didn't schedule many india vs england games between mid 90s and mid naughties and Australia did. from the book it was mentioned at the time the world cup was promised to be held in england in 1996, with Australia getting it in 1992, basically before ECB and CA lost their veto rights they agreed that the 1992 world cup was to be held in Australia and the 1996 world cup in england, but around 1992/93 Dalmiya Stole the world cup from england and at the same time destroyed their powers in the boardroom of icc was a really good book even if it was really old.

last factor was probably the shambolic 90s away performance, during that time india home performaces was downgraded a lot on TV and suspect that was the start of the away games factor that is still apparent in indian cricket and lastly the pitches the dull batting pitches on day 1-3 probably meant people didn't really want to watch the cricket at the ground.
the factors DDB mention are factors as well now.


But if in 2002-3 period india was able to play more marquee test matches especially at home then suspect the home crowd would still be here.

in 2001 believe England and Australia both toured india with a 3 match series each.

England didn't return again till 2006 for only 2 test matches and again in 2008 again for 2 test matches, wasn't until 2012 that England had a proper test series in india and it had a proper TV campaign and crowd interest, the other two were either very short or something major happened in one of the tours.
personally think it is insane that between 1996-2006 india barely played each other, I really can't find any valid reason of why England only tours india in 1992/3, 2001, 2006, 2008, insane to think they only played 10 Test matches in over 2 decades in india.

to be fair to australia they had the marquee series because of the border gavaskar trophy that started around 1990s, they had series in 2001, 2004, 2008, 2010, etc but baring that india test fans in india had nothing to see at home, especially at that time the bored was more interested in getting votes and buying supports so they generally played a lot more away matches, so india home season wasn't really that great during that time.

pretty sure if india had a set home season in 2002 period and they had a marquee series every 12-18 months at home then the test crowd would probably be good now.

Sadly not sure the test crowd will come back unless icc fixes the root problem of why they were gone in the first place.


2002-2004 no marquee Test games and then after the 2004 Aus series again no marquee test series in india till probably 2012.
2008 Aus series wasn't really the same because Australia were poor and SA was never really big and if they were big it was only 2 match series so again nothing big to build interest.

personally think it is a joke that someone that got into cricket in 2003/4ish had to wait what 12 bloody year to actually have a proper test series in india, imho even though india lost in 2012 it really felt at the time holy crap we got a proper test series and match in india.
2 match series against SA wasn't really the same of having 6-7 weeks of Test cricket and the build up etc.

Now it is probably too late when india finally get the test schedule it deserves and the crowds are gone.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:42 am

Dr Cricket wrote:England didn't return again till 2006 for only 2 test matches and again in 2008 again for 2 test matches,
.


As I remember, England played three times in 06, Nagpur, Mohali and Mumbai in a drawn series. And a Test was lost in 08 because of the killings in Mumbai, but it was scheduled at three games.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby Dr Cricket » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:53 am

would be nice to pinpoint the last series that was difficult to sell out in india for test match, even if Test matches now in india officially sell out, but off course that is only the tickets available to the general public.
pretty obvious the demand for test cricket ticket isn't that high anymore in india.

must be around 2004/05 period.
since I started watching cricket never seen crowd like 2001 india vs australia games or Eden gardens packed with 100K fans etc since then no one really made an effort to get the test crowds up again and the effort seen around 2014- now is a bit too late when far too many people are not too bothered to buy tickets or they find the hassle of getting a ticket not worth it.


personally think only Chennai, Mumbai, Delhi, Kolkata, Banglore should host Test matches, from my travels in india these are the only grounds that are right bang in the city centre.
the rest are basically in the middle of nowhere.
Don't really see why not these 5 don't host most of the Test matches and some selected matches in Vizag, Ranchi any other places they want to play cricket in when england or Australia tour for 4-5 matches series.

really not seen any evidence that crowds will come in outside centres like Rajkot, pune, Nagpur, Hyderbad and with Test cricket not been a priority for most indian fans now it really doesn't make sense to play them in outgrounds where no one would make the hassle of getting to the games and that too most of the test cricket fans probably won't make the travel either since probably most of the test cricket fans live in Mumbai, Delhi, Banglore, Chennai or kolkata.

having been in india for over 2 months I can understand why people do not want to travel for more than 6-10 miles or even more to get into stadiums some of them might not even have transport links and probably difficult to get Taxi or rickshaw as well, especially if you have to buy tickets at some stupid bank in the town centre which opens probably at 9am or 10 and then make an 1 hour journey to the stadium and then wait probably for 30-40 minutes to get into the stadium because only one counter to get in is probably opened and you probably missed 1 session and half already.
the main reason I see about people not going to see games in india is about the stupid arrangement for tickets, especially at the outgrounds, far too many stories of people missing 1 whole session or even close to 2 session to get into the ground to watch games which frankly speaking is ridiculous and no wonder fans don't bother now if they are treated like that.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby Dr Cricket » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:01 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:
Dr Cricket wrote:England didn't return again till 2006 for only 2 test matches and again in 2008 again for 2 test matches,
.


As I remember, England played three times in 06, Nagpur, Mohali and Mumbai in a drawn series. And a Test was lost in 08 because of the killings in Mumbai, but it was scheduled at three games.

Ah ok thanks for that.
you are right about 2006 but think you are wrong about 2008, england were only scheduled to play 2 test matches even before the attack.
the breakup was 5 test matches over 2 yrs.

either way doesn't really change anything only 11 test over 2 decades.
Still not enough test matches between the teams during the period and certainly not big enough or long enough to get enough TV interest or fans interest.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2008/ ... st-attacks
"The two fixtures will take place as scheduled,"

not really sure why England played 5 matches over 2 yrs in india, india vs England bilaterial arragments during this period doesn't really add up because they are not symmetrical.
TBH nothing what england or ECB did during this period even make sense really, cricket was probably the loser between the cold war between BCCI and ECB at the time.
IMHO if ecb and bcci worked together during the time rather than bickering and not really having any arrangements between each other cricket might be in a more healthy shape now.
they spent years fighting on which board will have the most power and money etc.

In my lifetime not seen any board badly managed than ECB they literally have dumb and dumbers running it.
Giles Clarke, Graves are some of the dumbest people ever to manage sport.
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Re: How good are India?

Postby meninblue » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:34 am

We are touring better because we at least won 1 test in SA and England. SA where whitewashed in SL. Aussies are likely to get whitewashed in Dubai. Having said that the way other teams are touring, it makes our poor performance looks slightly better. Liton Das scoring few more runs than Soumya Sarkar does not means Luton is a world-class batsman. Both are poor, but one relatively better. No team today has players capable of delivering performance across all conditions.

Being a country where cricket is No 1 sport since decades , having top notch domestic cricket systems in some states, having good financial support of BCCI which has lead top class infrastructure to LIST A and capped players , we expect more from this Indian team. Yes , other teams are strong at their home and hence we are not winning series in some countries since decade but we should draw some series. Drawing series will be a gradual positive performance.

The FAB5 have not been replaced and this batting lineup is umcomparable to that. However, we now have a very higher nunber of pace bowler who can bowl very fast. Pace bowling department has massively improved whereas batting has been on gradual decline.
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