English Cricket Thread

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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby sussexpob » Tue Nov 07, 2023 11:59 am

Durhamfootman wrote:I think he was talking about raw pace. Bowlers who are capable of hitting 96, 97mph come along so vary rarely, particularly in England


Wood has never bowled at those paces for all his career, the ridiculously fast pace he hit in Leeds is a very new level he has found. He had the capability of the low 90s, but never high 90s.

Excuse the crap point, but it reminds me of that episode in Red Dwarf where the toaster manages to make Holly brilliant again, but it turns out in doing so he reduces his lifespan to a couple of minutes.... feels the same, which is why a 3 year contract at this point seems even more clueless to me. Wood seems to have said hes just going to bowl ridiculously quick with whatever is left in the tank, but surely with his history in injuries and age, it just means he's going to breakdown bowling these speeds after a few matches?
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue Nov 07, 2023 6:18 pm

quite possibly, even after a life lived from inside a cotton wool cocoon.
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby alfie » Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:41 am

The point with Wood is surely that England are desperate to ensure he is on deck for the next Ashes tour. Whether that is enough justification for a three year deal (two might have just about done the trick , perhaps ?) is open to question. But you can see why they went for it.

I know you don't much rate Wood , Sussex : but I think we can do without those carefully selected "stats" purporting to prove he is basically rubbish. Pretty obvious to anyone with eyes that he's been a much better bowler over the last couple of years and if (IF !) he can continue in that vein for a couple more years he will be a very useful asset.

Whether he will or not , we will see in time...
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby Slipstream » Fri Nov 10, 2023 12:36 am

Mail

On Thursday he was in attendance at Loughborough as a 21-strong group prepares for the three-week trip starting on November 16. He is sharing mentoring duties on the tour with fellow Ashes 2009 winner Graeme Swann.

Joining former England captain Flintoff in Abu Dhabi will be a collection of England Test players upping their fitness levels ahead of January’s tour of India including Jimmy Anderson, Ben Foakes and Ollie Robinson, with Ollie Pope and Jack Leach also there to stop up their comebacks from injury.

So 25 players in all. Glad they are taking Anderson, Foakes and Leach. They are going to need Foakes' keeping in India. Bairstow can have a rest.
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby Slipstream » Fri Nov 10, 2023 1:39 am

Cricinfo
The tall left-arm spinner Hartley has been earmarked for this Test tour and, at the very least, will be in India on a Lions tour due to run parallel with the main event. That particular group will feature more senior fringe players playing a two-day warm-up followed by three four-day matches against India A - ideally first-class - pending confirmation from the BCCI.

Why can't the main Test squad being playing these matches. No warm up matches. Indian players can play in the cc when they come here.
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:03 am

Slipstream wrote:Why can't the main Test squad being playing these matches.

because they're completely knackered and shagged out after a particularly long squawk being rested to the point of being undercooked for the WC, travelling first class for thousands of miles and staying in luxury hotels for a month.... and that's before we even consider how tired they must be from playing all those rounds of golf on their days off. Poor lambs will need a good old rest after all that lot

I need a rest after weeks of despairing, so they must really, really need one
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Nov 10, 2023 10:05 am

After all.... what are the chances of the test team turning up undercooked for a 5 test series in India :dunno


feels unlikely :coat
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby sussexpob » Sun Nov 12, 2023 1:44 pm

alfie wrote:I know you don't much rate Wood , Sussex : but I think we can do without those carefully selected "stats" purporting to prove he is basically rubbish


Sometimes nuances get lost arguing particular points, Alfie. The proposition was not is Wood a bad player, it was in reference to (a) the suggestion he is deserving of the longest contract ever offered by England (b) the suggestion he is a generationally hard player to replace, and his retirement is going to pose some unprecedented struggle to replace him.

On that regards, I dont think the stats attack was particuarly "carefully" selected to fit my argument. To justify the long contract, its pretty normal to ask whether Wood has ever been a reliable assest to England, and no he has not, I think thats a simple given. If we then assume that he will be reliable, then I think its again quite sensible to ask for a player all about express pace, how has he played when he actually has managed to play more than 1 or 2 tests in a year? The answer is, the only two years he's been available near 100% availability, are his worst statistical years... and that makes sense, because the toll of bowling quick regularly seems to equate to slower paces, and diminishing returns.

You then move onto the idea of how much of an asset he is. The idea he is irreplaceable can be broken down two fold - firstly, his performances compared to his peers are noteably good, that he is essential to the side or, secondly, we accept the wide held proposition that his extra pace brings with it an additional element for succes. Neither of these are proven by the stats, so rather than being carefully selected, I struggle to see the truth in this proposition. Other bowlers perform worse with him in the side, and he does not out perform them. I then suggested the stats also show that in live series v dead ones, his performances are even more underwhelming.

I dont think it requires much massaging of figures to suggest Wood's value is over-rated. Now of course, one could say he has value as a 1 or 2 a year guy that is bowling full out assault pace all the time, but then that doesn't necessitate giving him a massive deal. The two things cant really be right here, unless contrary to evidence over a long span, Wood suddenly is capable of bowling 98 mph 10 tests a year, and maintaining his form. Which even at his physical peak, he was not able to do, so as an injury ravaged 33-34 year old, we are asking for a miracle.

Interesting that even in this latest tournament, England kept him out the last two games, and low and behold we won both...... where would we have been without Woods 6.5 an over given away, and his wicket average of 60?

More than anything, it annoys me that some players retain this illusion of irreplacability, while others do not. David Willey is miles better than Mark Wood in LOs, and look how hes been treated. Taking wickets in the low 20s, best econ bowler in this tournament for England, and he lost a central contract to a 25 year old who has played 2 LO games!!
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby Slipstream » Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:15 am

Squad to the West Indies

ODI squad: Jos Buttler (captain - Lancashire), Rehan Ahmed (Leicestershire), Gus Atkinson (Surrey), Harry Brook (Yorkshire), Brydon Carse (Durham), Zak Crawley (Kent), Sam Curran (Surrey), Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire), Tom Hartley (Lancashire), Will Jacks (Surrey), Liam Livingstone (Lancashire), Ollie Pope (Surrey), Phil Salt (Lancashire), Josh Tongue (Nottinghamshire), John Turner (Hampshire)

T20 squad: Jos Buttler (captain - Lancashire), Rehan Ahmed (Leicestershire), Moeen Ali (Warwickshire), Gus Atkinson (Surrey), Harry Brook (Yorkshire), Sam Curran (Surrey), Ben Duckett (Nottinghamshire), Will Jacks (Surrey), Liam Livingstone (Lancashire), Tymal Mills (Sussex), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Phil Salt (Lancashire), Josh Tongue (Nottinghamshire), Reece Topley (Surrey), John Turner (Hampshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire)
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Mon Nov 13, 2023 11:21 am

I'm not surprised by the absence of Durham players in the T20 squad
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby bigfluffylemon » Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:41 pm

Archer withdrawn injured. Again.

He's never going to play again, is he?
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby Slipstream » Tue Nov 14, 2023 1:53 am

bigfluffylemon wrote:Archer withdrawn injured. Again.

He's never going to play again, is he?


Maybe needs to find a better surgeon. Has had three elbow operations.

Stokes is using the same surgeon as Woakes for his op. Both had/have knee tendinitis.
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue Nov 14, 2023 7:50 am

He's played more cricket than I thought this year

an ODI and T20I series back in March, which I'd completely forgotten about, before breaking down in the IPL...... of course!

still.... keeps the money coming in and keeps England paying for all his surgical needs

I'm being too cynical, I know.
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby sussexpob » Tue Nov 14, 2023 10:41 am

Having watched Archer before the international debut a bit at Sussex, its suffice to say the player we have now is completely different to the one back 5-6 years ago. In the CC, Archer would bowl low to mid 80s, and relied on accuracy a bit of nip off the pitch, and excellent seam control. In T20Is or 50 over games, he would often bowl the odd ball much higher around the 90s with the new ball, but this was never sustained. In fact, when he first started to hit the radar in the 90s, it would often be followed by a second spell at the death of games with hugely significant drops in pace as a result.... sometimes it went down to the mid-high 70s.

But yeah, Ed Smith instantly started talking up the express pace, and the rest is history. He spent like 1 year bowling way above his physical capability, and then thats it...its broken him.

England didn't manage him that well either.... he bowled like 45 overs of express pace in NZ in one innings, in the winter of 19-20. No surprise he broke down....
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Re: English Cricket Thread

Postby Durhamfootman » Tue Nov 14, 2023 3:50 pm

definitely one of the least unsurprising things
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