English Cricket Thread

[andy]

3 players have signed 3 year multi deals with the ECB. Joe root, harry brook and surprisingly mark wood......Ben Stokes and Jimmy Anderson one year deals.....David Willey has lost his contract which is a suprise and not ideal timing to find out midway through a world cup...

[sussexpob]

3 players have signed 3 year multi deals with the ECB. Joe root, harry brook and surprisingly mark wood......Ben Stokes and Jimmy Anderson one year deals.....David Willey has lost his contract which is a suprise and not ideal timing to find out midway through a world cup...

I like Rob Key trying to insist Ben Stokes rejecting a longer contract doesn't mean anything. Yeah yeah.... I assume he retires at the end of this year, which isnt a criticism at all.... but it seems obvious with fitness and motivation, Ben is a big candidate for making lots of money in T20 cricket, and fair play to him if he chooses that..... which seems likely if he did not commit long term to England.

[sussexpob]

As for Mark Wood being given a 3 year contract, I am starting to think that Wood must have a dossier on the ECB.... he will be 34 after this tournament finishes, and a 34 year old who has been injured non-stop since his debut 10 odd years ago, and missed 100s of matches. The last Ashes series somewhat proved that given a long rest into a game, he can crank it up to ridiculous pace, but he coudn't sustain it after the first game.

His ODI record is terrible, he's not a noteworthy T20I player, and he averages about 2-3 tests a year inbetween breaking down (and an average of 30 a wicket is not exactly great)....

Seems a very bizarre commitment for England to make. I wonder if he breaks down again soon, if he just sits doing nothing and claiming his dosh

[alfie]

I don't think Stokes lacks motivation to continue with England : but he wouldn't be human if he didn't have some concern over how his body is going to stand up to all the stress he's been putting on it. I reckon if he can keep in good enough condition to do so he will be keen to continue - and indeed to negotiate possibly even better terms next year , as Key suggests. But if the knee gets worse or other issues arise he may have to reserve himself for short form stuff to see out his career.

Hope for England's sake he can keep going : I really don't see a "next Test captain" anywhere near ready...

[Durhamfootman]

As for Mark Wood being given a 3 year contract, I am starting to think that Wood must have a dossier on the ECB.... he will be 34 after this tournament finishes, and a 34 year old who has been injured non-stop since his debut 10 odd years ago, and missed 100s of matches. The last Ashes series somewhat proved that given a long rest into a game, he can crank it up to ridiculous pace, but he coudn't sustain it after the first game.

His ODI record is terrible, he's not a noteworthy T20I player, and he averages about 2-3 tests a year inbetween breaking down (and an average of 30 a wicket is not exactly great)....

Seems a very bizarre commitment for England to make. I wonder if he breaks down again soon, if he just sits doing nothing and claiming his dosh

I would think so, which is why it's completely understandable that Woody would bite the ECB's hand off for a 3 year deal.

The ECB are clearly struggling to get a grip on players wanting to take the franchise money. I half expected Anderson to be offered a 3 year deal, despite him being 40 odd and a player who wouldn't get a T20 gig anyway. Not for the first time, the ECB seem out of their depth trying to solve a new conundrum and so jump in feet first with only half a clue as to what it is that they think they're doing

[sussexpob]

I don't think Stokes lacks motivation to continue with England : but he wouldn't be human if he didn't have some concern over how his body is going to stand up to all the stress he's been putting on it.

I agree with this, Alfie. When I mention motivation, I meant it in the context of him being willing to play through pain or discomfort, and to keep accepting the toll of playing on his body. Eventually, a lot of older players with waning fitness face that decision of continuing to drag their bodies through physical hell, or to give up - and only a madman would question their courage or moral willpower in such situations, because I imagine it is not easy. I did not mean that he doesn't want to play for England - I think in Ben's case, his life and bank balance might be better if he retired and trawled the T20s leagues.

I reckon if he can keep in good enough condition to do so he will be keen to continue - and indeed to negotiate possibly even better terms next year , as Key suggests. But if the knee gets worse or other issues arise he may have to reserve himself for short form stuff to see out his career.

Not in my view. If he really wanted to continue as he has been, then a longer contract allows him to do that with the added security that if he cannot get on the field, he has a security blanket of a guaranteed wage still. Rejecting a longer term deal only really makes sense if he has the intention, or has come to the realisation, that some time soon he cannot keep dragging himself through all the matches. I would expect that after he serves out that contract, he will be at the stage where he needs to control his own work load, and needs flexibility to pick and choose which tours to miss, or which formats he doesn't want to play.... and lets be honest, he will make a pretty penny out of the T20 over stuff if he wanted it.

Again, its not a criticism of him. I'd have no problem with him coming in for the odd test match or series when he makes himself available, to ensure he is fresh for games - and making his dollars in the IPL or Bash

[sussexpob]

I would think so, which is why it's completely understandable that Woody would bite the ECB's hand off for a 3 year deal

I won't begrudge a 34 year old bowler with an injury past from hell, guaranteeing themselves an income at the twilight of their career. I imagine Wood thought his agent was pranking him when the call came through....

The ECB are clearly struggling to get a grip on players wanting to take the franchise money. I half expected Anderson to be offered a 3 year deal, despite him being 40 odd and a player who wouldn't get a T20 gig anyway. Not for the first time, the ECB seem out of their depth trying to solve a new conundrum and so jump in feet first with only half a clue as to what it is that they think they're doing

I remain dubious that these contracts will have any use. If they are successful in blocking players from Franchise leagues, then no one will sign another one

[Durhamfootman]

not sure what Woody would get from his contract, but it'll be an all format deal, so I'm going to guess the best part of 1 million quid a year plus add ons for 3 years?

he'd be daft not to grab it with both hands

[Slipstream]

Wood 2023 136.4 overs
3 Tests 87.4 overs
7 ODIs 47 overs
1 T20 2 overs

Stokes 38 overs
Archer 49 overs

Not much bowling going on this year. Wood and Archer will go to the IPL as there will be no international cricket and come back injured again.

[alfie]

3 years does seem a long term deal for Wood : but the "miles on the clock" point does also apply here. Wood has had quite a lot of enforced absences from serious game time so probably is less knocked about in that sense than other younger bowlers. His recent form suggests he could still be an important pace option for England for a while yet - as long as he doesn't do too much dashing around in franchise leagues. With this contract , England has some control.

Could pick and peck at some of these deals ; but we are entering - are already in - a new world in terms of country v "club" cricket. Let us give this new attempt to manage it a fair go before we condemn it as another ECB silly idea , perhaps ?

[sussexpob]

3 years does seem a long term deal for Wood : but the "miles on the clock" point does also apply here. Wood has had quite a lot of enforced absences from serious game time so probably is less knocked about in that sense than other younger bowlers

As I alluded to with Stokes, a lot of what controls the longevity of a player is their own mentality, and how they deal with the accumulated fatigue or decline of their bodies, and certainly a lot of that is how much they have had to play. It is entirely likely that Wood looks back at the last decade as a test player/prospect, and feels his measly amount of games played in that time does not do him justice, and so the injury problems spur him on to keep working hard. He certainly appears to have reacted well to his injury hell of the past, and kept on working hard to return, so I have no reason to doubt his mentality.

But from a physicality perspective, I think its a non-starter. Of course, we can both say that we don't have a crystal ball, and that sometimes freaky occurrences happens - but I think it goes without saying that any expectation that a 34 year old elite sportsman who has spent a decade constantly injured will suddenly become more injury free, or even be able to maintain the same level of fitness at their peak, is quite an assumption to make, and certainly goes against quite a weight of evidence.

Even in recent times, he's missed a lot of tests, so its not like the curve is moving upwards. He has broken down mid test twice in the last couple of years too (Galle and in the Windies).

Surely the team management cant have much belief in him playing al the time? In fact, the two years he did get close to playing a full quota of games, he performed much more badly, which I guess is understandable if he is all about pace and awe.... seems the more he plays, the less venom he has, the worse he performs.

[Durhamfootman]

He's also, despite his injury woes, almost certainly the quickest bowler that England have ever had. Dobell recently said that in his opinion, when the time comes, Wood will be the hardest player for England to replace since Graeme Swann. That spell at Headingley was one of the great spells of fast bowling imo. Truly astonishing pace. I kind of watched it in disbelief

[sussexpob]

He's also, despite his injury woes, almost certainly the quickest bowler that England have ever had. Dobell recently said that in his opinion, when the time comes, Wood will be the hardest player for England to replace since Graeme Swann. That spell at Headingley was one of the great spells of fast bowling imo. Truly astonishing pace. I kind of watched it in disbelief

Was Dobell suggesting that in pure type/pace, Wood would be hard to replace, or as a player in general and what he brings to the side? Because if its the former, yes indeed that goes without saying but its debatable what value sheer pace has anyway, if its the latter then poor George needs a straightjacket I think. People love pace, and of course there will be times when sheer pace will be valuable. But how valuable it is, is often overstated dramatically.

You can demonstrate Wood's value on the team by two factors....

Firstly, his own performance as a yardstick. In matches where he plays, he has the worst bowling average out of all the regular pace bowling options that played along side him (rated by counting those to have taken 10 wickets), and in his career span, there are also another handful of players who have taken 10 wickets who performed better than him on wicket average. If you take those pace bowlers that never played with him, those that performed worse, when isolated to their own career time frames and Wood's performance at the same time, also performed better than him (so Steve FInn/Archer, etc).

Secondly, its often presented that Wood's pace adds another dimension that elevates all bowlers. This is, on the data, false. Anderson for instance averages 21 in matches without Wood, and nearly 30 with him. Broad and Robinson are consistent. The only example of a player who performs better in the team when with Wood, is Chris Woakes. But then that only became true after the last test, and the vast disparity between Woakes away and home form makes him somewhat of a statistical outlier.

It's also worth noting when Wood's best bowling comes. In games that are always live (ie test 1-2 of a series) he averages 41 and 35.... at the end of series, he averages pretty well. Games like in Hobart or the third test vs Windies, that represent his best moments, were dead rubbers. Of course, there is examples of brilliant games he has had in live series, Leeds this year being an example, the the trend is very much for him to bowl badly in games that are live series, and pick up stats at the end.

[Slipstream]

He's also, despite his injury woes, almost certainly the quickest bowler that England have ever had. Dobell recently said that in his opinion, when the time comes, Wood will be the hardest player for England to replace since Graeme Swann. That spell at Headingley was one of the great spells of fast bowling imo. Truly astonishing pace. I kind of watched it in disbelief

Was Dobell suggesting that in pure type/pace, Wood would be hard to replace, or as a player in general and what he brings to the side? Because if its the former, yes indeed that goes without saying but its debatable what value sheer pace has anyway, if its the latter then poor George needs a straightjacket I think. People love pace, and of course there will be times when sheer pace will be valuable. But how valuable it is, is often overstated dramatically.

You can demonstrate Wood's value on the team by two factors....

Firstly, his own performance as a yardstick. In matches where he plays, he has the worst bowling average out of all the regular pace bowling options that played along side him (rated by counting those to have taken 10 wickets), and in his career span, there are also another handful of players who have taken 10 wickets who performed better than him on wicket average. If you take those pace bowlers that never played with him, those that performed worse, when isolated to their own career time frames and Wood's performance at the same time, also performed better than him (so Steve FInn/Archer, etc).

Secondly, its often presented that Wood's pace adds another dimension that elevates all bowlers. This is, on the data, false. Anderson for instance averages 21 in matches without Wood, and nearly 30 with him. Broad and Robinson are consistent. The only example of a player who performs better in the team when with Wood, is Chris Woakes. But then that only became true after the last test, and the vast disparity between Woakes away and home form makes him somewhat of a statistical outlier.

It's also worth noting when Wood's best bowling comes. In games that are always live (ie test 1-2 of a series) he averages 41 and 35.... at the end of series, he averages pretty well. Games like in Hobart or the third test vs Windies, that represent his best moments, were dead rubbers. Of course, there is examples of brilliant games he has had in live series, Leeds this year being an example, the the trend is very much for him to bowl badly in games that are live series, and pick up stats at the end.

Very interesting.

Read somewhere that Wood had a sore knee. Will he still play (with injections) or will Atkinson get a chance? Both are must win games. Factor in the fact that in 7 games he has 6 wickets at 58.17 econ 6.46. Atkinson and Carse bowl at 90mph.

[Durhamfootman]

I think he was talking about raw pace. Bowlers who are capable of hitting 96, 97mph come along so vary rarely, particularly in England.

Although I do remember Harmison managing it very briefly around one of the WC finals that England lost, but not on a consistent basis

I don't know what it is about ashes matches in Leeds, but Stokes 2019 and Wood 2023 were quite simply jaw dropping individual performances