Spot Fixing?

[gollygosh]

Mike
The corruption is endemic - the last disaster in pakistan (the earthquake) - Ive heard that only $1 in ever $6 donated by the international community actually got where it was intended. The rest lined pockets of officials and paid for false invoices etc. Why do you think the UN has had such a problem in getting the international community to donate this time?

These cricketers are simply applying the same approach - if you can make a dollar, do so. "Honour of Pakistan" - "Love of Country" - what a joke! why should these cricketers behave any better than their politicians and their administrators?

[DeltaAlpha]

Unless I were a lawyer specialising in the field, sussex, I would hesitate to delve to such depth into the law regarding entrapment...

I feel comfortable im adequately qualified to make somekind of detailed assessment.

That wasn't intended as a critcism of you, sussex, but an expression of my own reluctance to comment on what is an extremely complicated area of law.

Personally, I'm not convinced that any crime has actually been committed in relation to the NOTW story, and the investigations will be focused on seeing whether any crime has been committed in the past.

[sussexpob]

Mike
The corruption is endemic - the last disaster in pakistan (the earthquake) - Ive heard that only $1 in ever $6 donated by the international community actually got where it was intended

The situations usually highlight the good or bad nature in people.... Im sure there are many people who have reacted in a much more positive light.

DA,

No worry. I didnt take offence

[King of Punjab]

it gets worst the sun is reporting 1st test was fixed. i feel the tour must be stopped or this will end up as a farce. i feel sorry for the npeopolke that paied lots of money to watch the test matches, they must feel cheated and hurt.

[SaintPowelly]

I hope that Imran Fahrat isn't involved ( I'm not sure why but I like him ) but he had some odd dismissals this tour aswell

[englandmad666]

Temptation must be a huge problem as well for a player like amir, im not trying to make excuses but for a lad who apparently was brought up through poverty to be offered the chance to make his familys life comftorable and his own in a blink of a eye must be hard to ignore, especially if he sees senior players such as his own captain getting away with and making a killing....

I still believe anybody that is found guilty of this should be banned for life, but im just trying to illustrate the problem that some of these players have faced growing up and that maybe just maybe that has played a part in this young mans mind....

Can they be used as mitigating factors? i doubt it, but for those reasons i do feel a tad sympathetic for young amir.

[SaintPowelly]

Can they be used as mitigating factors? i doubt it, but for those reasons i do feel a tad sympathetic for young amir.

He still makes alot more money than most people in Pakistan, and everyone gets tempted by something - it isnt an excuse.

[sussexpob]

Can they be used as mitigating factors? i doubt it, but for those reasons i do feel a tad sympathetic for young amir.

Its an interesting one. Generally for the charge in question there are no defences.... not unless they can prove someone walked into the dressing room with a sub machine gun before the opening of play, and threatened to kill the new ball bowlers and Butt if they didnt do it.

In these cases the very fact the agreement to match fix was made is enough for a guilty verdict.... the requisite need for dishonesty is clear, because literally no one will ever successfully argue they were naive to the fact that they were (a) cheating or defrauding the sport...(b) that they were being paid money just for the crack of it, and no one down the line was going to lose money from legal bets, or from the result in general.If the evidence is there, they have nothing at the moment to argue in their defence.

As for mitigation of sentence, its an interesting one...... http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/docs/lc318.pdf .... check pg70, the Law commission has been recommending for sometime that a defence should be available for the charge, and are seeking to change the law through the government(The LC are hugely influencial).

As they have been specifically charged with the common law "Conspiracy to defraud", and not Statutory Conspiracy, the courts can use equity measures to mitigate the charge should they decide the precedent and reasoning is there. It is entierly possible with the law commissions pressure to change already present, and a high profile case in the dock, that a judge could find the opportunity to make a landmark change to the law.

The problem is, there would need to be somekind of heavy mitigating factor. The LC recommends a defence or mitigation for those who have seeked to right their wrongs before they committed the action, but the fact that the Pakistan bowlers overstepped in the match is a killer blow.

The fact that they may have been unduly influenced is not that bigger factor either.... it matters little to a guilty verdict. Amir after all is an adult, and should no better at 18.... he knew he was cheating, he chose to do it.

The best the Pakistan team can do is hope they get a jury trial if it comes that far, and hope they can play on the heart strings a little. Certainly their argument on the facts of law are pretty daming on the evidence available. The only other things as I said, would have been a gun to the head when the deal was made, and a constant source of violent pressure stopping them going back after that.

[SaintPowelly]

Is there a chance that players could face a prison sentence, after all they are commiting fraud ??

[sussexpob]

Is there a chance that players could face a prison sentence, after all they are commiting fraud ??

As Conspiracy covers the original agreement of deception, and not the matter of whether the actually actions are illegal(a no ball is not illegal, defrauding investors is) the tariffs realistically would be lower than in normal fraud cases. But the CPS recommends the following tariffs, and highlights these examples.

AG'S REFERENCE No. 141 of 2004 (Kenneth Kince Thomas) [2005] 2 Cr.App.R.(S.) 94
Pleaded guilty to conspiracy to defraud. The defendant and others obtained £100K over 2 years by cloning credit cards. Community penalty increased 15 months. Tariff 2 years

R v CHIRILA AND OTHERS [2005] 1 Cr.App.R.(S.) 93
Pleaded guilty to conspiracy to defraud. The defendant installed a small wireless camera above the keyboard of the cash machine so as to acquire the PIN numbers from the cards. £24K obtained from 55 customers. A strong deterrent element must be incorporated into these sentences. This is the sort of fraud which has the effect of undermining the confidence of the public in the electronic banking system. 6 years.

As you can see, the amount involved in (a) is around the same amount these players are getting.... 2 years sentence recommended!

In (b) though is key to note an example was made of the victim, as the CPS wish to make an example.... even for a relatively low amount, he got 6 years! In contrast, last month a brighton based betting syndicate that defrauded 5million from punters got 5 years each, 21 months for the middleman.

So basically a guilty verdict should bring 1-2 years at least.

Another point, the CPS recommended guidelines actually state that no aggrivating or mitigating factors should be considered.....

[englandmad666]

Of course as sussex says, any succesful court procedure by amir where mitigating factors play a part could lead to a massive loop hole in the law as any decision made by a judge in the higher courts could be made into precedent that opens the door for many more such cases to slip through.

I think its safe to say if charged then these lads dont stand a chance in the courts as the evidence seems overwhelming, maybe there is still stuff to come to light but i think these guys and there careers could be about to be ended, amir at 18 has seemingly wasted a talent that very few have seen from a man of his age, a terrible sad case for cricket and that could tarnish the game forever...

[mikesiva]

Mike
The corruption is endemic - the last disaster in pakistan (the earthquake) - Ive heard that only $1 in ever $6 donated by the international community actually got where it was intended. The rest lined pockets of officials and paid for false invoices etc. Why do you think the UN has had such a problem in getting the international community to donate this time?

These cricketers are simply applying the same approach - if you can make a dollar, do so. "Honour of Pakistan" - "Love of Country" - what a joke! why should these cricketers behave any better than their politicians and their administrators?

I still think it's unfair to draw a correlation between some Pakistani cricketers succumbing to greed, and a corrupt government....

We didn't make overall generalisations about Saffer society when Hansie Cronje and a few other SOuth African cricketers were found out doing much worse - match-fixing. To me, they're two separate issues:

1) spot-fixing in cricket;

2) governmental corruption.

There are so many other unfair comparisons we could make about other countries....

1) Is the number of American athletes, including Justin Gatlin, testing positive for performance-enhancing drugs linked to the poor, incompetent response of the Bush administration to the Katrina disaster?

2) Is the incident of the black West Indian pace bowler, Marlon Black, being beaten up on a WI tour of Australia linked to Australia's poor treatment of black aborigines in the past?

3) Is the non-selection of players like Michael Carberry, Ravi Bopara and Ajmal Shahzad linked to Britain's colonial past in the subcontinent and the Caribbean?

4) Is the death of Bob Woolmer in Jamaica linked to that island's high murder rate?

My answer to all of the above would be 'no', because those are unfair comparisons to make. We also need to consider that while most of those implicated in spot-fixing are Pakistanis, other players from other coutnires have been implicated in the past, including Marlon Samuels from Jamaica and Australians Shane Warne and Mark Waugh. Does this also raise questions about the social and political cultures of Jamaica and Australia?

And as for donations to Pakistan following the floods, Pakistan governmental corruption has little to do with the poor response. As in the case of Haiti, most donations would go thru UN agencies and charities, and little of it would actually be controlled by the Pakistan government. No, the reason why the UN has had such a problem in getting the international community to donate this time has more to do with Pakistan being Muslim, and being demonised in the world press, as the US tries to find an excuse why their campaign is failing in Afghanistan....

[keshto]

Does this mean Amir and Asif will be banned for life?

Sad really, isn't it?

[SaintPowelly]

Does this mean Amir and Asif will be banned for life?

Sad really, isn't it?

not really, the punishment fits the crime and Asif has been banned for drugs before

[keshto]

I am not saying they don't deserve it, although being banned for life in the only job you excel might be a bit harsh, at least in my opinion.
I am saying it is sad to lose two Pace bowlers of their calibre.

Of course it's also sad that two pace bowlers of their quality are found guilty of being corrupted.

Don't really see what the drug charges have to do with that. It's not like he took performance enhancing drugs.