The associate's thread

[Red Devil]

can't these players have the option of continuing to represent Ireland without having to go through a requalification period (if it doesn't work out for them in Eng)

[ChrisQ]

can't these players have the option of continuing to represent Ireland without having to go through a requalification period (if it doesn't work out for them in Eng)

Don't think so, but then all of this stems from the fact that Ireland and the UK are in the EU and have free movement (and had free movement before the EU's free movement rules) and so are essentially like one country for residency purposes. It's even worse for Scotland because there is literally nothing to distinguish someone from Scotland from someone from England (legally speaking) since there is no separate English and Scottish citizenship/passport etc.

I think some of the responsibility/fault must lie with the players. If I were Eoin Morgan I would politely refuse the call up. After all what is the point? He is sure to play in the final XI for Ireland but not in the final XI for England, so already it is a risk to accept that call up since he could well sit on the bench the whole time (and how would that advance his career?). Then with Dirk Nannes likely to play for the Netherlands and England also facing Pakistan, what are the chances that England will advance in the World Twenty20? Probably better than Ireland's but with the Dutch strengthened by an Aussie-Dutch twenty20 sensation and Pakistan as a good T20 side the chances can't be that much greater than for Ireland to advance. And finally, what is the chance that Eoin Morgan would really play test cricket? That to me should be the only reason to accept a call up for a test playing nation if you are from an associate or an affiliate country. And Ed Joyce never played test cricket and is likely to never play it in his life-time as he is now nearly 31 and has had a below average ODI career with England to date (so below par that he isn't anywhere near the frame anymore after appearing in the 2007 world cup). As it was Ed Joyce could well have just continued playing for Ireland and gone on to play ODIs and still have played professional first-class cricket in England as a county player. I doubt the counties would be unhappy with him refusing an England call up since it would mean he could spend more time with them (as Ireland would play far fewer games than England anyway).

Morgan has a decent first-class average (40+) but then he hasn't been so outstanding that he would be a sure pick for tests (and with Strauss, KP, Bell, Bopara, Prior, Ambrose, Collingwood, Cook and even Shah around there isn't any deficiency in England's batting that would see him get a spot).

[ChrisQ]

not sure I like the way this keeps happening. Not sure there is a winner anywhere in this situation continuing, unless one of them goes on to be a regular test player. Think no matter how sentimental anyone is, IRL are miles away from being a Test nation, but players having a crack at the big time and cutting themselves of from future exposure to international cricket is a high risk strategy.

My thoughts exactly.

And this comment by CricketIreland's chief executive, Warren Deutrom shows one of the reasons why:

Eoin's departure, and Ed Joyce's before him, underlines the fact that Associate countries like Ireland will always lose our very best players until such time as we are shown a pathway to Test cricket by ICC.

That attitude will ensure Ireland remain miles away. The simple fact is that it shouldn't be for the ICC to show Ireland the way to Test cricket. The path is already outlined in the full membership requirements of the ICC (which is available on the web in PDF format). It is up to Ireland to plan the best way for them to acheive those requirements (which include a multi-day domestic competition I believe). And the fact that Kenya with all it's problems and poverty attempted to institute a domestic 3-day league (but it ended up being a 2-day league) and that the Dutch plan to institute a domestic 2-day league should put Deutrom to shame. Obviously Kenya and the Netherlands are moving/walking along the path to test cricket while Deutrom seems to be waiting for the ICC to send him a coach to whisk him and CricketIreland to full member status.

If the Netherlands and Kenya can attempt and actually institute 2 or 3-day domestic cricket, I see no reason why Ireland can't do the same and all the complaints by their administrators seem out of touch with reality if they aren't even thinking about multi-day domestic cricket.

I can guarantee Mr. Deutrom that if India, New Zealand, West Indies, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Zimbabwe had adopted a similar approach of waiting on the ICC to do things for them then we would only have 2 or 3 test nations today instead 10 (or 9 depending on how you count it).

[wulliemc]

I think at least a few players are choosing county over country too. I read somewhere this weekend about an Irish player who had snubbed them to play for xxx. Sorry, don't remember the details, I'll search if nobody else knows.

[mikesiva]

Players like Ed Joyce and Eoin Morgan are already earning a wage playing for their respective counties....

So, I don't see playing for England as the only option available to them. They seem to see this as a way of maximising their earning potential, which does seem a trifle mercenary to me.

Maybe, if they stuck it out with Ireland, that country could achieve Test status sooner than we think. However, if players like Joyce and Morgan defect to England, there's absolutely no way they will ever reach international class.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I agree with mike, it is not good to keep taking Ireland's prize assets, how will they develop as a cricketing nation if we do? Worse than that, as has been said above, if it does not work out, it will leave the players in international limbo.

Maybe Ireland are far far away from being a Test side, but:

Porterfield (Gloucs)
Joyce (Sussex)
Morgan (Middlesex)
N.O'Brien (Northants)
G.Wilson (Surrey)
Rankin (Warwickshire)

That could have been the beginnings of the spine of a side, a bit light on the bowling mind you but it's a start.

But not if we keep pinching their best players it isn't.

[wulliemc]

If all of those players listed were still available, I'd be cuious to see how they fared against ZIM or BAN in a multi day game. A fair chance they could win I think.

[mikesiva]

The Irish have now applied for Full Member status within the ICC....

http://www.cricinfo.com/ireland/content ... 32837.html

maybe that's the only way they can prevent their good players deserting the ship for England!

Seriously though, if Bangladesh can have full status, why not Ireland?

[yuppie]

Very good question Mike. Maybe the inferstructure and revenue are not in place yet.

But i feel with Ireland as with Kenya before them, the ICC have not done enough to promote the teams after a period of success. Ireland in the last W/C where a breath of fresh air. I think that they could give BD a decent game over the longer format. It is also good that they are looking to improve and build to full status. Good forward planning.

But will they get it, not a chance.

[ChrisQ]

The Irish have now applied for Full Member status within the ICC....

http://www.cricinfo.com/ireland/content ... 32837.html

maybe that's the only way they can prevent their good players deserting the ship for England!

Seriously though, if Bangladesh can have full status, why not Ireland?

Well actually they haven't applied. Their board president has only sent a letter stating the board's intention to apply but I don't gather that there is a time frame on that intention.

Seriously though, if Bangladesh can have full status, why not Ireland?

Well I outlined my reasoning earlier in the thread but in brief:

- no domestic multi-day cricket of any form apparently

- their record is decent, but they haven't outshone bangladesh yet (they beat Bangladesh once in ODIs and then got swept 3-0 in an ODI series with Bangladesh, throw in the T20 and they have a 2-3 record against Bangladesh).

I think that they could give BD a decent game over the longer format..

Well Ireland are due to play the Zimbabwe XI in the intercontinental cup. If Ireland don't perform well against that team (so far Zimbabwe has only sent 1 to 3 of their main players to be in the Zimbabwe XI for each match and it is essentially a Zim 2nd XI) it will probably mean they are great against other teams with less players with first-class experience (like Bermuda, UAE, etc) but might still have some ways to go before giving BD a run for their money over 5 days. On the other hand, if they thrash the Zim XI and establish a multi-day domestic setup I can't see why they shouldn't get it.

[mikesiva]

Ireland have lost Eoin Morgan to England....

However, the signs are that there might be a movement in the other direction. Ed Joyce should be able to play for Ireland after being ignored by England some time soon, and now Kiwi reject Hamish Marshall seems set to pursue an Irish career....

http://www.cricinfo.com/ireland/content ... 54520.html

Could his twin brother James follow suit?

Today, Ireland play a three-day game against Jamaica, without this trio, of course.

[greyblazer]

Is Hamish Marshall planning to play for Ireland

http://www.cricinfo.com/ireland/content ... 54520.html

[Alviro Patterson]

In order for Ireland and Scotland to avoid losing their top players to England Cricket in future, they should get together and form a ldomestic league of their own. Say have 6 teams and have a 4 day, 50 over and 20 over leagues. They could also join the FPT20 to boost their profile.

[mikesiva]

Boyd Rankin is now a part of the ECB's plans, and William Porterfield acknowledges the lure of England is a serious obstacle in the development of cricket in Ireland....

http://www.cricinfo.com/world-twenty20- ... 58501.html

"To progress as a nation we are going to have to hold on to our bigger players," Porterfield, who himself plays for Gloucestershire, said. "It's not going to be easy because we can't offer them Test cricket. It's great to see the Irish cricketers coming through and that they have that drive to go on and play Tests." Cricket Ireland, led by the CEO Warren Deutrom, are not actively seeking Test status immediately - although longer-term that is an ambition - but an alternative Full Member ranking that would create more opportunities to play the stronger teams and also boost funding, in turn helping to develop the game in Ireland and bring through more young players. "It's unfortunate we can't offer them that at the minute but hopefully we'll have that status in years to come or get on the Future Tours Programme and to get more one-dayers and Twenty20s against the bigger teams," Porterfield said. "If we can get to that stage, and perform consistently, then I think they have to look at Ireland as a serious contender to get to that stage. "It's not going to happen overnight, there are massive steps to take, and ideally we could hold on to these players but we aren't going to hold them back if the opportunity arises to play Test cricket."

[mikesiva]

Ponting has waded into the debate....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket ... 744423.stm

'"I'm very sympathetic to countries like Ireland that could keep losing their best players. It's something that I feel shouldn't happen," said Ponting.'