Quota system

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Re: Quota system

Postby mikesiva » Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:26 pm

Here we go again....
:?
Craig Kieswetter does a KP, and basically says he preferred England because of the quota system in South Africa....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 043667.ece

“As a child I spent a lot of time in the UK but my parents wanted to bring up their two sons in South Africa. When I decided I wanted to make a career in the UK they encouraged me. It wasn’t really that big a decision. I felt the opportunity was fairer for a person of any race compared to the situation in South Africa. The cricket system there was an issue.”
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Re: Quota system

Postby D/L » Mon Mar 01, 2010 4:46 pm

It’s entirely credible. Whatever one thinks of the “cricket system there”, an individual who considers himself adversely affected by it must have the right to seek alternative ways of realising his full potential.
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Re: Quota system

Postby mikesiva » Tue Mar 02, 2010 1:11 pm

Nothing wrong with thinking what you want, but is it realistic? Is it the truth? Or is it a case that he really thinks it's easier to get into the England side, and to compete with Matt Prior for the gloves, than to edge Marc Boucher out of the job?
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Re: Quota system

Postby D/L » Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:44 pm

When Kieswetter started his qualifying period I doubt he could have forecast that four years later Prior would be the man he had to displace.

The more players who cite this as a reason for leaving South Africa, the more credible it becomes.
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Re: Quota system

Postby sussexpob » Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:35 am

In short, its wholy creditble. Its not an excuse.

Ive demonstrated on another thread my opinion, and in unbounding depth!

The abridge version is that, the question of nationality is answered subejctively. A player has a sole right to determine which Nationality he considers himself to be. The principle of national identity is not rigid, it is fluid, and can change in a person easily.

This is because being part of a national identity does not come from the geographical location of your birth, but subscribing to the notions of a collective level of thinking in a country.

Take KP, Prior, Keiswetter....

All born in a country where their skin colour will in someway inhibit the application of their given talents.....talents they have build over years of hard work. Regardless of whether a quota system is officially in place, a black player of similar skill, or with skills that are passable, will get picked over a white person with slightly, if not markedly better skills.

Now, if one country takes away your ability to work on the lines of creed or colour, and one offers you the opportunity to work regardless of these issues, which one are you likely to show alligence to in the future? The one that takes away, or the one that gives you everything?

Its my belief that such players who come here, come because they not only want to work and earn money, but because they subscribe to the right that all people should be treated equally, and given equal opportunites....

Its the first step to shedding your cultural ties....adopting new ones. These players, once adapted and given time to blend into the country, in essence become as English as you and I.....
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Re: Quota system

Postby mikesiva » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:23 am

Sorry, I don't buy that....

As far as I can see, every current member of the Saffer team deserved his place in the side. Right now, Prince and Duminy are going thru a rough patch, and it's very likely one of them will lose their spot. But there's no disputing that they earned their right to play in the side.

It's far more likely, as Michael Vaughan says, that the likes of KP and Kieswetter migrated to England more because of money and economic opportunities, but to avoid being labelled mercenaries, they decided to use the usual scarecrow of blaming the quota system for their migration....
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Re: Quota system

Postby D/L » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:27 am

Sorry, I don’t buy that either. Why uproot yourself and your family and wait four years to play for another test team if you think you have a fair chance of selection at home?

Any quota system, well-intentioned as it may be, is bound to impact upon the principle of selection on merit and the victims of it should have every right to try to realise their potential elsewhere.
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Re: Quota system

Postby Albondiga » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:21 pm

D/L wrote:Sorry, I don’t buy that either. Why uproot yourself and your family and wait four years to play for another test team if you think you have a fair chance of selection at home?

Any quota system, well-intentioned as it may be, is bound to impact upon the principle of selection on merit and the victims of it should have every right to try to realise their potential elsewhere.



I think the question you ask is valid. My answer would be that people nowadays with a certain amount of talent will take the route that they consider easiest and most financially rewarding regardless of whether they are playing cricket, in the city, doctor or dentist etc.

If that means moving then they will. Many of them will migrate to England because we pay our cricketers more in general. Life (to a large degree) is about earning your living. During the latter part of my cricketing life I played many games with good young cricketers (MCC young pros and County 2nd XI hopefuls) and they never talked about cricket but majored on contracts, expenses etc.
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Re: Quota system

Postby D/L » Fri Mar 05, 2010 1:56 pm

I agree to a point, Albondiga, but in professional sport today, the greatest financial rewards are obtained through playing at international level. Uprooting oneself and one’s family, waiting at least four years for consideration and, in the meantime, having to outperform home grown talent in domestic competition hardly seems the easy option.

I also think, despite money being peoples’ main motivators these days, that most players who believe they have a special talent will also have a burning desire to display it on the world stage. We shouldn’t be too critical of players, who see their way to achieving this blocked for reasons other than ability, trying to find an alternative route.
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Re: Quota system

Postby englandmad666 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 5:19 pm

Well the whole quota system itself offers players the chance although i doubt many realstically thought they where been heldback enough to pin point as the deciding factor behind there choice of a month. The idea that the quota system is used as excuse for migration is convenient but slightly ludicrous, players like KP and Kieswetter would have been nowhere near the SA national side four years prior to there england debuts but im sure they could have found SA teams to play for, so either they where outraged at the system been used on other players or they are just using it as a excuse to come over here.

I dont care anyways, because they are entitled to play cricket for england over here because they have choosen to, qualfied to play for england and probably became the players they are because of there decision to learn and train in over here. So for me they are as english as anybody and no amount of bitterness can take that away.
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Re: Quota system

Postby sussexpob » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:13 pm

mikesiva wrote:Sorry, I don't buy that....

As far as I can see, every current member of the Saffer team deserved his place in the side. Right now, Prince and Duminy are going thru a rough patch, and it's very likely one of them will lose their spot. But there's no disputing that they earned their right to play in the side.



Prince failed to score a test 50 till his 10th test match..... and when he finally did, it was against a Zimbabwe XI that were days away from withdrawing themselves from competition due to their lack of competitiveness? If anything, Prince proves how much leeway a potentially good black player gets when compared to a good white player. The way he performed particularly in the second year of his career would have seen a white player ditched for eternity.... as i said in FC there was many players pushing a case, yet Prince was given ample opportunity.

Duminy is going through the same thing, no test 100 in 10 tests in the last 5 matches a top score of 36 and 3 0's...... now again Id argue that a player of white background would have been ditched by now!

So compare these players havent had anywhere near the time in the team to settle.... Van Jaarsveld, Kemp, Ackerman, Zander De Bruyn(how performed well, but was only given 3 tests!!).

Currently the team has players who are settled. De Villiers, Smith, Kallis, Boucher and Amla are not problems, yet the black players in the team are failing very badly and arent dropped.

And with Alvaro Pietersen being picked in the team for the test vs India, you also have to question the fairness in selection. People like Stephen Cook, Vaughan Van Jaarsveld, Dean Elgar, Smits, Roussow, Kunn... even Johan Botha had an amazingly year in Domestic cricket, and had the added option of being able to increase the bowling attack in India....

So its clearly apparent that black players are favoured over the whites where possible
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Re: Quota system

Postby sussexpob » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:39 pm

englandmad666 wrote:The idea that the quota system is used as excuse for migration is convenient but slightly ludicrous, players like KP and Kieswetter would have been nowhere near the SA national side four years prior to there england debuts but im sure they could have found SA teams to play for, so either they where outraged at the system been used on other players or they are just using it as a excuse to come over here.



Sorry Englandmadd666, but the quota system does not merely exclude people from the national team.... it extends to school cricket, club cricket, Regional domestic competitions.....everything!

KP was dropped from the Natal side for a player considered similar in Gulam Bodi( a decent lower order batter, and off spinner). The Natal coach explained to pietersen that he's replacement wasnt to do with his performance, and that it had been decided the Natal team needed to be more representative.

KP says he blew his top, and was offended at the suggestion. His father went to discuss the situation with Phil Russell, Natal coach, but talks went nowhere(as did Bodi's career!). He had played against the England touring side earlier that year, and had impressed Nasser Hussain, who went back to England and talked alot about Pietersen. The interest from England was therefore gathering pace.

KP then met Bacher, the leader of SA cricket, to discuss the quota system he had been dumped by.... he says "He was rude to me in that meeting and he was rude to my dad. I had never met the man before. As far as I was concerned the least he could do was be polite." Bacher failed to offer any encouragement that things would improve. "As soon as we left the meeting my dad said to me: 'You're going ... the quota system will never finish'."

Not long after he rang Clive Rice at Notts and got the contract. KP stated when he moved ... "I would have been frozen out of the system ... I would have gone out and had to do something else."

So it wasnt about playing for SA, England or money...... he was dropped for an Indian player, made attempts to clarify his situation, and was told for the greater good he would be sacrificied, somewhat uncerimoniously!
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Re: Quota system

Postby englandmad666 » Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:45 pm

sussexpob wrote:
englandmad666 wrote:The idea that the quota system is used as excuse for migration is convenient but slightly ludicrous, players like KP and Kieswetter would have been nowhere near the SA national side four years prior to there england debuts but im sure they could have found SA teams to play for, so either they where outraged at the system been used on other players or they are just using it as a excuse to come over here.



Sorry Englandmadd666, but the quota system does not merely exclude people from the national team.... it extends to school cricket, club cricket, Regional domestic competitions.....everything!

KP was dropped from the Natal side for a player considered similar in Gulam Bodi( a decent lower order batter, and off spinner). The Natal coach explained to pietersen that he's replacement wasnt to do with his performance, and that it had been decided the Natal team needed to be more representative.

KP says he blew his top, and was offended at the suggestion. His father went to discuss the situation with Phil Russell, Natal coach, but talks went nowhere(as did Bodi's career!). He had played against the England touring side earlier that year, and had impressed Nasser Hussain, who went back to England and talked alot about Pietersen. The interest from England was therefore gathering pace.

KP then met Bacher, the leader of SA cricket, to discuss the quota system he had been dumped by.... he says "He was rude to me in that meeting and he was rude to my dad. I had never met the man before. As far as I was concerned the least he could do was be polite." Bacher failed to offer any encouragement that things would improve. "As soon as we left the meeting my dad said to me: 'You're going ... the quota system will never finish'."

Not long after he rang Clive Rice at Notts and got the contract. KP stated when he moved ... "I would have been frozen out of the system ... I would have gone out and had to do something else."

So it wasnt about playing for SA, England or money...... he was dropped for an Indian player, made attempts to clarify his situation, and was told for the greater good he would be sacrificied, somewhat uncerimoniously!


Thanks for your post sussex, i apologise i didnt know the full extent of the quota system and my post may seem ignorant for which i apologise. Thanks for clearing it up for me :)

I had no idea though that the problem was so deep seeded, and it stretched a lot further then just sport, hopefully one day it will end.
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Re: Quota system

Postby sussexpob » Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:01 pm

No need to apologise ha ha....

Its a common mistake, many people seem to argue that these players were nowhere near the SA team.... but most had shone in youth cricket and found it difficult to make the step up, because their entry into the full domestic game was barred due to quotas.

Even if the national team drops its quota system, all those barring Rudolph defected to England due to lower level quotas....

And naturally there will always be a tendancy to pick black players who excel, compared to black players of a similar level, which is wrong.

KP himself says the system is totally unfair, because even in youth cricket there was afeeling that merit was often dropped in place of colour
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Re: Quota system

Postby Albondiga » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:42 pm

sussexpob wrote:
englandmad666 wrote:The idea that the quota system is used as excuse for migration is convenient but slightly ludicrous, players like KP and Kieswetter would have been nowhere near the SA national side four years prior to there england debuts but im sure they could have found SA teams to play for, so either they where outraged at the system been used on other players or they are just using it as a excuse to come over here.



Sorry Englandmadd666, but the quota system does not merely exclude people from the national team.... it extends to school cricket, club cricket, Regional domestic competitions.....everything!

KP was dropped from the Natal side for a player considered similar in Gulam Bodi( a decent lower order batter, and off spinner). The Natal coach explained to pietersen that he's replacement wasnt to do with his performance, and that it had been decided the Natal team needed to be more representative.

KP says he blew his top, and was offended at the suggestion. His father went to discuss the situation with Phil Russell, Natal coach, but talks went nowhere(as did Bodi's career!). He had played against the England touring side earlier that year, and had impressed Nasser Hussain, who went back to England and talked alot about Pietersen. The interest from England was therefore gathering pace.

KP then met Bacher, the leader of SA cricket, to discuss the quota system he had been dumped by.... he says "He was rude to me in that meeting and he was rude to my dad. I had never met the man before. As far as I was concerned the least he could do was be polite." Bacher failed to offer any encouragement that things would improve. "As soon as we left the meeting my dad said to me: 'You're going ... the quota system will never finish'."

Not long after he rang Clive Rice at Notts and got the contract. KP stated when he moved ... "I would have been frozen out of the system ... I would have gone out and had to do something else."

So it wasnt about playing for SA, England or money...... he was dropped for an Indian player, made attempts to clarify his situation, and was told for the greater good he would be sacrificied, somewhat uncerimoniously!








I'm not questioning your post and I'm not disagreeing but how do you know that what you have written is the whole truth and nothing but the truth? We only have one side of the story here.
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