Quota system

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Re: Quota system

Postby sussexpob » Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:56 pm

Such a heavy accusation, and the resulting loss on the national team several years later(espeically when Pieteresens ODI debut series involved him destroying the home Saffers, which is when he began to discuss his reasons for joining) would have instigated some kind of strong counter argument had the truth been disputed.... the fact KP gives reference to particular players and conversations would also add to the truth.

And compare Bodi and KP's records..... 100's of international games vs 3 limited overs games.... and the FC records are not even close to show the quality of the player!

It seems, actually in back up to my earlier statements, that Bodi had some talent.... and being a non white(Actually born in India, which is common in Natal where Malays and Indians are very prevalent) he was fast tracked by more deserving players to boost the racial mix
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Re: Quota system

Postby Albondiga » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:15 pm

sussexpob wrote:
englandmad666 wrote:The idea that the quota system is used as excuse for migration is convenient but slightly ludicrous, players like KP and Kieswetter would have been nowhere near the SA national side four years prior to there england debuts but im sure they could have found SA teams to play for, so either they where outraged at the system been used on other players or they are just using it as a excuse to come over here.



Sorry Englandmadd666, but the quota system does not merely exclude people from the national team.... it extends to school cricket, club cricket, Regional domestic competitions.....everything!

KP was dropped from the Natal side for a player considered similar in Gulam Bodi( a decent lower order batter, and off spinner). The Natal coach explained to pietersen that he's replacement wasnt to do with his performance, and that it had been decided the Natal team needed to be more representative.

KP says he blew his top, and was offended at the suggestion. His father went to discuss the situation with Phil Russell, Natal coach, but talks went nowhere(as did Bodi's career!). He had played against the England touring side earlier that year, and had impressed Nasser Hussain, who went back to England and talked alot about Pietersen. The interest from England was therefore gathering pace.

KP then met Bacher, the leader of SA cricket, to discuss the quota system he had been dumped by.... he says "He was rude to me in that meeting and he was rude to my dad. I had never met the man before. As far as I was concerned the least he could do was be polite." Bacher failed to offer any encouragement that things would improve. "As soon as we left the meeting my dad said to me: 'You're going ... the quota system will never finish'."

Not long after he rang Clive Rice at Notts and got the contract. KP stated when he moved ... "I would have been frozen out of the system ... I would have gone out and had to do something else."

So it wasnt about playing for SA, England or money...... he was dropped for an Indian player, made attempts to clarify his situation, and was told for the greater good he would be sacrificied, somewhat uncerimoniously!





Sorry to disagree but as proud as KP and others are (whether South African or not) to play for England it should not be said that (at least in part) these players don't come to earn money. If it were not the case why are there so many foriegn players in our country plying their trade at cricket, football, rugby etc?? Those with talent normally want to test that talent at the highest level but if you can earn a good living that comes first(especially if you have a family) and increased rewards may well come at a later date. If KP really was regarded as an off spinner and number eight then People misjuged him - he's certainly not a number eight and neither is he an offspinner - in fact he could neither bowl a hoop downhill or turn milk.
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Re: Quota system

Postby Albondiga » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:32 pm

sussexpob wrote:Such a heavy accusation, and the resulting loss on the national team several years later(espeically when Pieteresens ODI debut series involved him destroying the home Saffers, which is when he began to discuss his reasons for joining) would have instigated some kind of strong counter argument had the truth been disputed.... the fact KP gives reference to particular players and conversations would also add to the truth.

And compare Bodi and KP's records..... 100's of international games vs 3 limited overs games.... and the FC records are not even close to show the quality of the player!

It seems, actually in back up to my earlier statements, that Bodi had some talent.... and being a non white(Actually born in India, which is common in Natal where Malays and Indians are very prevalent) he was fast tracked by more deserving players to boost the racial mix





With espect I haven't made an accusation I've just stated it was one side of the story. He certainly had problems with the SA cricketing establishment and there is a 'quota system' but we don't know if the SA cicketing estabishment had a problem with him. Both England and Nottingham have had their disagreements with him which, of course may or may not be justified..
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Re: Quota system

Postby sussexpob » Fri Mar 05, 2010 11:57 pm

Albondiga wrote:With respect I haven't made an accusation I've just stated it was one side of the story. He certainly had problems with the SA cricketing establishment and there is a 'quota system' but we don't know if the SA cicketing estabishment had a problem with him. Both England and Nottingham have had their disagreements with him which, of course may or may not be justified..


I didnt say you made an accusation at all..... I meant it in the respect that KP's accusations, if grossly untrue, would have been disputed by the people he mentions in the said statements. Stating certain people were involved in picking players of lesser ability, and apparently also admitting that was the case, would cause a massive storm were there no truth at all.

I guess your right about the example of foreigners playing football and rugby here also, and for a financial benefit, but there is a difference here...... in football, club football is where the money is, and a player doesnt need to represent his nation in order to be tested at the highest level... argubly the premiership/champions league are the toughest competitions going, and the world cup is not so....

A footballer can therefore satisfy his wishes to be competitively tested, AND make huge sums of money without having to represent a nation... in cricket it matters more because players how dont have access to the national level are not going to earn money, and there is limited spots in domestic teams of all countries for foreigners...

So arguably, if you are under a quota system, the ability to play county cricket is needed to ply your trade, and furthur commitment to the national team follows hand in hand, as it opens up not only your competitive doors, but earnings also.
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Re: Quota system

Postby Albondiga » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:23 pm

Apologies for mis-reading your post.
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Re: Quota system

Postby GordoninPortsmouth » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:34 pm

D/L wrote:When Kieswetter started his qualifying period I doubt he could have forecast that four years later Prior would be the man he had to displace.

The more players who cite this as a reason for leaving South Africa, the more credible it becomes.


Amongst possible white South African players.

This always happens when you need to institutionalise power redistribution within a system (which IMO post-apertheid South Africa clearly had to do) the group which formerly had all the power suddenly think they are being grossly disadvantaged.

However in terms of the South African selection process I am simply not convinced this is the case.

The likes of KP and Kieswetter should be careful their argument is not interpreted as being: "things in South Africa (cricket) should have remained exactly as they were".
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Re: Quota system

Postby GordoninPortsmouth » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:56 pm

Hmmmmmmm.....


sussexpob wrote:Prince failed to score a test 50 till his 10th test match..... and when he finally did, it was against a Zimbabwe XI that were days away from withdrawing themselves from competition due to their lack of competitiveness? If anything, Prince proves how much leeway a potentially good black player gets when compared to a good white player. The way he performed particularly in the second year of his career would have seen a white player ditched for eternity.... as i said in FC there was many players pushing a case, yet Prince was given ample opportunity.


Scores of 49 and 48 against McGrath/Warne et al in his 1st and 3rd test surely showed obvious potential.

sussexpob wrote:Duminy is going through the same thing, no test 100 in 10 tests in the last 5 matches a top score of 36 and 3 0's...... now again Id argue that a player of white background would have been ditched by now!


You mean like white players such as McKenzie and Dippenaar?

sussexpob wrote:And with Alvaro Pietersen being picked in the team for the test vs India


Did I imagine Pietersen scoring an impressive hundred on debut in foreign conditions?
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Re: Quota system

Postby sussexpob » Mon Mar 08, 2010 12:59 am

GordoninPortsmouth wrote:Hmmmmmmm.....

You mean like white players such as McKenzie and Dippenaar?
?


Mackensie played the majority of his cricket in the early 2000's,and with Cronje's subsequent suspension and death in 2000-01, he was considered the natural successor to the captaincy, after captaining the A, U-19 and Schoolboys teams. Cullinan, Cronje and Rhodes had all left the team(or were about to very soon), and places were available aplenty....

So he got chances while the team tried desperately to find some consistency in selection, and being groomed into a new captain. Over the next few years Smith, Kallis, Gibbs and Boucher would all start to assume stronger roles in the batting, and Smith became the new captaincy hope.... MacKensies chances faded as his use to the team was questioned.

The main difference between him and prince however is, While MacKensie came back a handful of years later to open and averaged 46 in 10 tests at number 1-2, but hit the rocks in a few bad tests(costing his career, despite a very good record as opener).... Prince hit bad form, was asked to open and averaged 10, with a best score around 20, and wasnt dropped.....

So in the last 2 years you have an opener(white) who was averaging 46 in his role as opener, got dropped for a man who averaged 10 in the position, and isntead of switching the two around, they drafted in Alvaro(who's FC doesnt match up to a number of players currently in the Super Sport Cup, who happened to have better stats, are younger, had better form.....but then again they are white).

Its evidence for me that a black player will be favoured over a white one.... arguably if the same class the black always is picked, and a black player who shows a reasonable level of quality will throw himself into national contention, while some white players like Benkenstein had amazing domestic records but never got one chance...

GordoninPortsmouth wrote:Scores of 49 and 48 against McGrath/Warne et al in his 1st and 3rd test surely showed obvious potential.



Nothing inbetween, and the worst specialist batsman statistically for SA in his first 3 tours.... he went 5 tests after that series without passing the twenties(and two of them were vs BD).... and inside those first 8 tests, he was out for ducks the same amount of times he went passed twenty(without ever being able to convert a semi-start into anything passed 50).....

Id be interested to see how many batsman started their career that poorly and went onto play 50 tests??!!??

Steve Waugh was considered an allrounder,so even when he took time to score a 100, he was taking wickets to excuse himself with the bat.
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Re: Quota system

Postby ddb » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:07 am

If I can butt in, I think you may be reading way too much in to some selections.

Petersen had done well in ODI's and was an obvious option for tests. What does he do in his first test? get a 100.
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Re: Quota system

Postby GordoninPortsmouth » Mon Mar 08, 2010 9:15 am

sussexpob wrote:
Id be interested to see how many batsman started their career that poorly and went onto play 50 tests??!!??


Off the top of my head: Marvin Attapattu had something like 7 ducks in his first 10 test innings and yet would probably be in contention as an opener in a Sri Lankan alltime XI. Its not that unusual for a play to struggle badly on starting out in test cricket such is the nature of the step up.

I really think this assessment of Prince is a bit opportunistic. If you were making these comments in 2008 they would have had no substance whatsover. Back then you could have made the same argument (only in the team because of his skin colour) about Hashim Amla and look where he is now. Prince is in a bad form slump and IMO will probably be rightly dropped shortly. At 32 he may find it just as hard to get back in the side. None of this IMO has anything to do with his skin colour.
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Re: Quota system

Postby sussexpob » Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:08 pm

See the thread "foreign imports" ddb.

You accuse me of maybe over analysing this.... maybe I am. But im personally not too keen on making statements about indivduals chosing to exercise their rights to move country, and as part of the current rules, exercise a desire to play for that country.

In those situations is just not sensible to blanket control such things. Every case should be treated with merit, and when you look into most cases at depth you find a reason.

Rudolph to many is a player who just had a poor record and was dropped, so he threw his lot in with a different team..... they neglect to mention before his test debut he was dropped for a far inferior FC player, Ontong, who was black..... and that his subsequent dropping sparked off a massive controversy in selection policy which shadowed his eventual call up. He was then in and out the team, never given a fair run to compete.... always a step away from falling to the Presidents policy of more blacks, and being the least safe person in a structed team.

He isnt the only person to criticise this...... Charl Langevelt was picked due to positive discrimination, but he walked from the team in India because he felt being picked because he was black, and shutting out a more deserving Nel was not the environment condusive to produce his best cricket......

You think its over analysis.... I see it as an opportunity to discuss every individuals decision to leave SA, and judge why...in most cases there is a valid reason.
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Re: Quota system

Postby Albondiga » Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:41 pm

We rightly pick out examples of black players keeping their place in a side when they are playing badly. Duminy and Prince are obvious examples but there was a time of course when the likes of D'Olivera never got selected despite him being more than worthy. How do people her feel about the non selection of Ntini despite his record. Was it justified? Was it too quick ?? No qualms here about dropping a black man who arguably is still a better pace bowler than all but Steyn.
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Re: Quota system

Postby GordoninPortsmouth » Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:49 pm

Albondiga wrote:We rightly pick out examples of black players keeping their place in a side when they are playing badly. Duminy and Prince are obvious examples but there was a time of course when the likes of D'Olivera never got selected despite him being more than worthy. How do people her feel about the non selection of Ntini despite his record. Was it justified? Was it too quick ?? No qualms here about dropping a black man who arguably is still a better pace bowler than all but Steyn.


It just goes to show how subjective these matters can be. I am sure if you believe the system in SAf overly favours black players the view on Ntini would be that he was ridiculously carried long past his sell by date.
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Re: Quota system

Postby sussexpob » Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:31 am

GordoninPortsmouth wrote:It just goes to show how subjective these matters can be. I am sure if you believe the system in SAf overly favours black players the view on Ntini would be that he was ridiculously carried long past his sell by date.



Ntini looked pretty bad in 2009, but I dont disagree with him still being selected vs England. For a start his decline was pretty sharp.... 2008 was a par year for him, but of course 2009 he was slowly showing he couldnt justify his selection.

Regardless of performance though, I think it was 100% right to allow Ntini to reach the 100th test landmark. He is the best black cricketer his country produced, and no doubt an inspiration to a lot of players to show an interest in emulating him..... it was therefore important that Ntini passed the landmark, and got the recognition and repsect he deserved in reaching that achievement.

That test was like a testimonal for him..... the press and public showed a great interest, and it was right to celebrate the career of a black player who had shown he didnt need quotas for the right to be picked..... he did that on his abilities.

After that I think they wanted him to pass 400 wickets, but the last test he played they had to accept he was beginning to be a detrement to the team, and that his 100th test had been recognition enough.
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Re: Quota system

Postby mikesiva » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:39 am

With regards to KP, when he was dropped from the Natal side for Bodi, he was having a terrible season with both bat and ball, as the stats will show. KP played four matches in the four-day Supersport Series in 1999/2000 as a spinner, and only took 10 wickets at an expensive average of 37. With the bat, he made 43 runs at a paltry average of 10.75.

http://static.cricinfo.com/db/ARCHIVE/1 ... S_BAT.html

As it is, Bodi only played one Supersport match, so he seems to have been a convenient scapegoat! If KP was like AB, he would've buckled down, worked hard, and improved his performances. Instead, he took umbrage that the Natal cricket association dared to drop him, and chose to migrate to England.

Anybody with a similar record - black, Asian or white - would've deserved to be dropped after such unimpressive stats. To blame his dropping on the quota system was a bit disingenuous. I'm sure KP - and Kieswetter - had their eyes on migrating to England anyway, and the quota system just provided them with an easy beating stick....
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