The future of County Cricket

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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Making_Splinters » Wed May 18, 2016 4:13 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Making_Splinters wrote:Not all the counties are struggling, if anything county finances can be a bit difficult to unpick. Take us for example, we have a large debt on the books due to completely redeveloping the ground but we made a just under £800,000 profit last year. It would be superficial to say because we're in £13,000,000 of debt that we are struggling, but actually, there is no danger of us not making our payments in the future on it unless something truly bizarre happens.

Counties that are truly struggling tend to stem from historic mismanagement and biting off far more than they can chew. Yes some of that is down to the ECBs slightly exaggerated promotion of the profits netted from international cricket, but just handing Counties a load of money wouldn't solve the bigger issues that are underlying what is going on


The last year Old Trafford didnt host international cricket, they made a crippling loss of 4 million (2012). They made a similar profit after a summer with an ODI and Test (2013) , having 150,000 odd tickets sold over 6 days. After the ODI's limited to one a year since, they returned modest profits. It would appear that Lancs need international cricket to turn a modest profit, and at least a 5 day test with good sales to make a worthwhile one.

This is where I take offence at the "historic mismanagement argument" because in short, Lancs did exactly the same so no one club can climb on the high horses here. Teams that were in bad finances took risks to make profit and attract cricket that brought money in, and lots of teams did it. Those that didnt are also in bad positions. Those that were lucky and got a greater slice of the pie have possibly very similar models to those that have failed. Take Hampshire, who also ploughed money into a ground to get test cricket.... not sure I see the difference between what they have done and Lancs?

As a county supporter from a non test venue, its pretty galling to see what financial advantages it gives people. Hove gets good ticket sales for T20, but lowering club membership levels for the county championship. A city based franchise taking the only profitability away would no doubt lead to death.

I think sometimes criticisms of counties is a lot like criticising the agricultural techniques of farmers in the middle of a drought. There is no money to mismanage.



Again it's easy to paint a simple picture there, Sussex. Most of the huge losses were due to a protracted legal battle over the redevelopment of the ground, and then the costs associated with going out there and getting it done. It's equally easy to say that the profits since the ground redevelopment are down to international cricket, again that's very simplistic, the ground redevelopment was designed to make OT a venue to generate revenue 12 months a year rather than just for 5 days a year. Also, we've launched successful ventures such as bonds which have increased revenue into the ground and next year will have a 5 star hotel in a prime location.

We didn't plough money in just to get Test cricket, but to secure OT as a funding machine for Lancashire cricket, there in lies the really big difference long term. International cricket isn't a golden goose, if you get the top Test matches such as the Ashes then it certainly pays well and OT does do that, but equally look at Durham's luck with international cricket! I doubt Hove or a fair few other grounds would actually benefit from getting Test cricket.

Not that you can really compare a venue which has hosted Test cricket since the inception of the Ashes to a County that has never done it.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Alviro Patterson » Thu May 19, 2016 1:23 am

sussexpob wrote:In fact, how do the ECB expect to generate profits for counties by taking away T20 from them? I know the Northants Chairman was talking at the start of the season saying they had 37,000 more ticket sales pre-season for T20 then this time the year before. He seemed to indicate the payment from the ECB to accept losing the T20 game to a city franchise would have to be very large, unrealistically large, for it to actually become agreeable.

The ECB are compromising the counties T20 receipts..... they have changed the 40,45 or 50 overs game so much no one really knows that the hell is going on..... and the test team swallows up the best players for 90% of the county championship. Put simply, how do we expect our counties to sell their product without a full hand?

I am not sure Premier League games would be fantastically attended should all international squad players be removed from week 3 to 37 of the season. Without a die hard commitment to a team, why would you go?

Take Sussex. If I choose to go to see them at the end of this season, chances are Wright might be in OD squad, Joyce will be in Dublin, Jordan will be resting in preparation for resting on another tour..... wheres the incentive for me to go to see them if they are missing all the players I would pay to see?


This is it, remember reading somewhere the Derbyshire chairman saying more revenue is generated from one T20 match against Yorkshire at Chesterfield than the entire County Championship campaign. It's understandable why the County Championship had to be reduced to 14 games. Most southern non-test playing counties sell out their T20 matches, the format was created to boost counties attendances. Take the competition away from them and England would be hard pressed to find the next Jos Buttler, David Willey, Sam Billings et al.

If counties are to be self sufficient, then the one day matches need to be better scheduled (i.e. on a Sunday). For the third year running there is no 50 over match at Headingley on a Sunday, as a result I have downgraded my membership from being a full member (was £175) to a club member (£30 + £10 a match on the gate). I would not be surprised if memberships across all counties are down because of how the fixtures are scheduled. For example, a CCD1 match on a Sunday between Yorkshire and Middlesex at Scarborough attracted barely 3000 spectators. In comparison, a dead rubber Pro40 match against Sussex attracted over 6500. Not all counties include Twenty20 matches as part of their standard membership package and if they do it is at a price. One Day memberships just seem to be worthless unless if you're a dedicated fan willing to book 4 days leave.

Scheduling most CC matches on a Sunday is a failure, both from a spectator and financial point of view. Folk are not going religiously attend red ball cricket on a Sunday, that format is more suited to midweek on a summers day when the working public are tempted to take a cheeky day off. I don't mind the odd CC match on a weekend if it's in Spring or Autumn, but not in Summer. If CC attendances are in need of boosting, maybe it lies in hosting day/night pink ball cricket.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby sussexpob » Thu May 19, 2016 9:08 am

Making_Splinters wrote: Again it's easy to paint a simple picture there, Sussex. Most of the huge losses were due to a protracted legal battle over the redevelopment of the ground, and then the costs associated with going out there and getting it done


Is there a large scale building project that has ever been made on budget, in time, and without legal challenges? This is a natural part and parcel of porjects. Its an essential part of project management to have a large portion of the final budget committed to contingency, the fact that in real terms such a small portion of overspend on the final budget nearly lead to financial bankruptcy shows you that the project itself was incredibly high risk, so much so the actual cost nearly ended the legal entity actioning it.

In terms of financial mismanagement, you need to be looking far closer to home than you think. Hampshire essentially did bankrupt themselves, only the council buying their giant white elephant and giving it back to them by absorbing the loss on it kept them from ruin. Yet you are going to tell me that Hampshire cut a profit last time they hosted an international game, and are therefore much more financially sound than other counties?

The encouragement of such financial strategies is wantonly dangerous, and its simply by sheer luck that a lot of counties that can claim victory on such calamitous financial policy

It's equally easy to say that the profits since the ground redevelopment are down to international cricket, again that's very simplistic, the ground redevelopment was designed to make OT a venue to generate revenue 12 months a year rather than just for 5 days a year. Also, we've launched successful ventures such as bonds which have increased revenue into the ground and next year will have a 5 star hotel in a prime location.


The profits for Lancs seem to be directly proportional to the amount of international cricket that is played there every year, in recent years. I am not sure how you can argue that more international cricket does not directly explain a rise in profits, it clearly does.

The fact is, Lancs without an Ashes test year are struggling to turn a worthwhile profit on a yearly basis. This is a club that is 2 minutes walk from the biggest sporting entity arguably in the world and which has means to benefit from that position with hospitality. They play in a huge city. They have international status ground.

If with all that, on current accounts without taking into account interest levels on the loan, would take about 20 years on current profits to pay off their debts, then I am not sure that this is something that can be celebrated.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby sussexpob » Thu May 19, 2016 9:24 am

Put simply.

If Lancs can only cut 800,000 a year profit when they have access to at least one form of international sell out every year, in some cases 6-7 days worth, play in a large test ground that can fit more people in, play in a geographical area that encompasses one of the biggest metropolitan areas in the continent, and is conveniently located right next to the world's biggest sports team that has cross over benefits, and have won major county tournaments in recent times.....

Then what is your realistic financial forecasted profit for a well run financial entity based in a city 5% of the size, with a ground 3/4 times smaller, that doesnt have the licence to print money for international cricket, and who shares a geographical area with the Wilbury Road branch of costcutters, turnover approximately £450 per day?

Put simply, its rather galling to be told that counties that have everything and nearly bankrupt themselves can sit and and pass judgement on the misfortune of other counties, and be told that they economically mismanage.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Making_Splinters » Thu May 19, 2016 7:21 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Making_Splinters wrote: Again it's easy to paint a simple picture there, Sussex. Most of the huge losses were due to a protracted legal battle over the redevelopment of the ground, and then the costs associated with going out there and getting it done


Is there a large scale building project that has ever been made on budget, in time, and without legal challenges? This is a natural part and parcel of porjects. Its an essential part of project management to have a large portion of the final budget committed to contingency, the fact that in real terms such a small portion of overspend on the final budget nearly lead to financial bankruptcy shows you that the project itself was incredibly high risk, so much so the actual cost nearly ended the legal entity actioning it.

In terms of financial mismanagement, you need to be looking far closer to home than you think. Hampshire essentially did bankrupt themselves, only the council buying their giant white elephant and giving it back to them by absorbing the loss on it kept them from ruin. Yet you are going to tell me that Hampshire cut a profit last time they hosted an international game, and are therefore much more financially sound than other counties?

The encouragement of such financial strategies is wantonly dangerous, and its simply by sheer luck that a lot of counties that can claim victory on such calamitous financial policy

It's equally easy to say that the profits since the ground redevelopment are down to international cricket, again that's very simplistic, the ground redevelopment was designed to make OT a venue to generate revenue 12 months a year rather than just for 5 days a year. Also, we've launched successful ventures such as bonds which have increased revenue into the ground and next year will have a 5 star hotel in a prime location.


The profits for Lancs seem to be directly proportional to the amount of international cricket that is played there every year, in recent years. I am not sure how you can argue that more international cricket does not directly explain a rise in profits, it clearly does.

The fact is, Lancs without an Ashes test year are struggling to turn a worthwhile profit on a yearly basis. This is a club that is 2 minutes walk from the biggest sporting entity arguably in the world and which has means to benefit from that position with hospitality. They play in a huge city. They have international status ground.

If with all that, on current accounts without taking into account interest levels on the loan, would take about 20 years on current profits to pay off their debts, then I am not sure that this is something that can be celebrated.


To be honest, this just serves to show the misinformation that perforates the entire discussion. The level of debt is actually entirely irreverent, whether or not you an actually meet your payments is the important factor, something non Test counties won't have to worry about, as shown above. Most of our profits don't actually come from international cricket outside of Ashes years, instead it's out of the constant revenue stream the ground produces.

As I said above, it's pointless to try and compare OT to grounds that are trying to match it. Actually discussing long term planning, for example our consistent cutting of players who don't meet the required standard would be.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby westoelad » Fri May 20, 2016 7:59 am

I assume you meant irrelevant M.S. but surely any level of debt is important as there's no guarantee that you can always meet the repayments. Lancs are fortunate in that they have an additional revenue stream from Man Utd overflow(£500k p.a.I read several years ago) and good luck to them on that. They can demand top dollars for rooms at the Lodge for example on European nights and no doubt can extend that when the new hotel is erected. But that is a huge investment with no guaranteesit will pay its way. Staging Test matches does generate huge income for the staging county but signs are that these are losing their appeal. Huge borrowing is a massive risk no matter how well calculated.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby sussexpob » Fri May 20, 2016 9:01 am

I think there are two points Id make M/S in response to your last post.

The first has been covered by Westoelad largely, which I agree with. I am not sure you can disregard the size of a debt on the basis that "its being paid". If I took out a mortgage above my means and paid it for a year, it doesnt mean I can service the debt for 25-30 years. On the second year I could lose my job, and suddenly the debt spirals out of control. Therefore the size of debt and the length it hangs over a business is incredibly relevant to its final position, and is a huge risk factor to consider. One bad financial year and the size of that debt, the increase in interest rate being charged on default, etc... it becomes VERY relevant.

The second has also been touched on by Westoelad; what guarantee do Lancs have that their revenue streams will be consistent from their independent money generating projects?

Its ok to assume putting a hotel near Old Trafford will make financial sense, but you also have to consider the saturation of the local market, and the fact that this potentially impacts on the investment you are making. Very recently a consortium of the Class of 92 footballers opened the Football Hotel next to the football ground, and I believe they have stated they intend to open more in the area, and in other cities. That hotel also has corporate facilities, and an artificial football pitch that on match days is converted into a large hospitality area that holds just under a 1000 people.

Another three of those in the local area as being touted, being run with strong links to the football club (I believe some players involved still work at United, and as corporate hospitality goes, Ryan Giggs turning up at his own hotel for 10 minutes to talk before a match would be more than most hospitality packages offer) and there goes your hospitality agreements with Manchester United potentially. And with large exhibition spaces and facilities, these hotels could also start to eat away at your events revenue. I also believe that a very recent exhibition center has also been built in the Trafford area (EventCity, or something like that)..... further local competition. How many concert venues

As for concerts, didnt the move festival that used to use the Trafford pitch essentially financially fail over a decade ago? Old Trafford had that for a few years, before ground investment, so its not like this idea of concerts being able to be hosted is new..... they did it years ago and it didnt last more than 3-4 years before fizzing out.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby hopeforthebest » Fri May 20, 2016 10:17 am

If the demands sussex places on Lancashire were placed upon banks and many if not most FTSE 100 companies, they would all be effectively bankrupt. Banks in particular carry the enormous debt of the cash their customers deposit. I believe at the moment Banks have been pressed to raise their capital base to 12% of their debts which could never cope if large numbers of depositors wanted their cash on the same day. We live in a world based upon the story of The Emperor's New Clothes, where we've all agreed to believe banks are beautifully clothed when in fact they have barely a loin skin between them.

Compared to banks, Lancashire is in great shape.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby braveneutral » Sun May 22, 2016 10:45 pm

Very interesting read. I think there will be changes as ultimately the counties are (in general) squeezed and will be forced to accept conditions that generate them more cash.
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