The future of County Cricket

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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Alviro Patterson » Tue May 19, 2015 11:45 pm

Something has got to give and it's nigh on impossible to come up with an ideal domestic schedule with all the competitions in their current format.

Two Divisions of 8 and 10 won't be disastrous. A 14 game season still retains it's competitive edge, whilst 8 teams in Division One increases the standard of play. More often than not one newly promoted team goes straight back down anyway.

An 8/10 County Championship of 14 games means no bye weeks for counties and overall 4 weeks are freed up for limited overs competitions to be properly scheduled.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby hopeforthebest » Wed May 20, 2015 12:01 am

Alviro Patterson wrote:Something has got to give and it's nigh on impossible to come up with an ideal domestic schedule with all the competitions in their current format.

Two Divisions of 8 and 10 won't be disastrous. A 14 game season still retains it's competitive edge, whilst 8 teams in Division One increases the standard of play. More often than not one newly promoted team goes straight back down anyway.

An 8/10 County Championship of 14 games means no bye weeks for counties and overall 4 weeks are freed up for limited overs competitions to be properly scheduled.


The main proposal is 12 county games not 14. Even if what you say becomes the final choice the plan involves only games from the top division getting TV coverage which will lead to poverty among the unlucky 10. There was once in this country a great Electrical company called GEC which made a whole range of products which filled English households and was very successful employing thousands of workers. They got the big idea of running down their business into making Radar systems for air forces around the world. Within a few short years they were bankrupt. They went for the big money and stopped doing what they were good at. England is good at county cricket and is the best source of cricket in the world.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Alviro Patterson » Wed May 20, 2015 12:41 am

hopeforthebest wrote:
Alviro Patterson wrote:Something has got to give and it's nigh on impossible to come up with an ideal domestic schedule with all the competitions in their current format.

Two Divisions of 8 and 10 won't be disastrous. A 14 game season still retains it's competitive edge, whilst 8 teams in Division One increases the standard of play. More often than not one newly promoted team goes straight back down anyway.

An 8/10 County Championship of 14 games means no bye weeks for counties and overall 4 weeks are freed up for limited overs competitions to be properly scheduled.


The main proposal is 12 county games not 14. Even if what you say becomes the final choice the plan involves only games from the top division getting TV coverage which will lead to poverty among the unlucky 10. There was once in this country a great Electrical company called GEC which made a whole range of products which filled English households and was very successful employing thousands of workers. They got the big idea of running down their business into making Radar systems for air forces around the world. Within a few short years they were bankrupt. They went for the big money and stopped doing what they were good at. England is good at county cricket and is the best source of cricket in the world.


The number of CC games is all speculative at present and Division One getting the majority of TV coverage is for a proposed two-tier Twenty20 league.

Only thing I can see the ECB going ahead from Cricinfo's claims is playing 50 over cricket early season, which makes sense with England hosting the ICC Champions Trophy and World Cup. The others I just can't see the counties being entirely in favour of.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby ChrisQ » Wed May 20, 2015 5:19 pm

Alviro Patterson wrote:
hopeforthebest wrote:
Alviro Patterson wrote:Something has got to give and it's nigh on impossible to come up with an ideal domestic schedule with all the competitions in their current format.

Two Divisions of 8 and 10 won't be disastrous. A 14 game season still retains it's competitive edge, whilst 8 teams in Division One increases the standard of play. More often than not one newly promoted team goes straight back down anyway.

An 8/10 County Championship of 14 games means no bye weeks for counties and overall 4 weeks are freed up for limited overs competitions to be properly scheduled.


The main proposal is 12 county games not 14. Even if what you say becomes the final choice the plan involves only games from the top division getting TV coverage which will lead to poverty among the unlucky 10. There was once in this country a great Electrical company called GEC which made a whole range of products which filled English households and was very successful employing thousands of workers. They got the big idea of running down their business into making Radar systems for air forces around the world. Within a few short years they were bankrupt. They went for the big money and stopped doing what they were good at. England is good at county cricket and is the best source of cricket in the world.


The number of CC games is all speculative at present and Division One getting the majority of TV coverage is for a proposed two-tier Twenty20 league.

Only thing I can see the ECB going ahead from Cricinfo's claims is playing 50 over cricket early season, which makes sense with England hosting the ICC Champions Trophy and World Cup. The others I just can't see the counties being entirely in favour of.


Hmmm...the number of CC games which will be adopted is still speculative, but the number of CC games which the ECB seem to want for each county seems to be 12 based on the article:

The County Championship looks set to be curtailed so that more emphasis can be placed on the limited-overs game with the ECB having agreed in principle to cut the number of games played by each team a season.

Emphasis will be placed instead on the financial potential of Twenty20 cricket and the desire to promote the 50-over game ahead of England's staging of the 2019 World Cup.

In a bid to ease fixture congestion and improve the value of the domestic T20 tournament, in particular, the ECB is attempting to devise a schedule where counties play just 12 Championship matches per season. At present they play 16.


The PCA seems to already be in favour of a conference system to arrive at the ECB's desired 12 games. My guess (without further specifics) is that such a system would imply the end of the divisional system (as conference systems tend to be based on territory rather than promotion-relegation) and the setting up of 6 team conference system with 3 conferences based upon regions - north (probably Yorkshire, Durham, Lancashire, Derbyshire, Notts, Leicstershire), midlands and southwest (Warwickshire, Worcestershire, Glamorgan, Northamptonshire, Somerset and Gloucs) and southeast (Essex, Middlesex, Sussex, Surrey, Hants, and Kent). Each team in each conference would play 10 games within a conference and each team then playing 1 other team from another conference home and away (or maybe playing 1 team once each from the other two conferences) to get up to 12 games per season. Top teams in each conference then move on to some sort of finals stage. Alternatively they might be proposing two conferences (north and south) of 9 teams with each team in the conference playing every other team in the conference once and then playing half the teams in their conference once more again to get 12 games.

The other suggestion for an 8/10 division (with presumably 14 matches for teams in division 1 and I suppose anywhere between 9 to 20 matches theoretically possible for teams in division 2, but probably 14 matches to keep it in line with division 1) comes from unspecificed "others":

But it is the changes to the County Championship that will prove most controversial. While the Professional Cricketers' Association favours a conference system to arrive at a 12-game season, others favour one division of 10 (with teams not necessarily playing each other twice) and another of eight.



The last bit of suggestions (not specified as to who made them) was also interesting:

There are also suggestions of adding three teams to create a 21-team, three-division tournament. An additional three teams could be drawn either from the Associate nations or the leading minor counties, with the chairman, Colin Graves, eager at least to explore the end of the 18-team closed shop. It is understood, however, that Cricket Scotland have yet to be approached about such a possibility and may be reluctant to compromise their international status and the prospect of playing Test cricket.


This speaks of a 21-team 3-division (not conference) format.

Using the 2014 points standing tables, this is roughly what it would have looked like had it been introduced for 2015:

Division 1:

Yorkshire
Warwickshire
Sussex
Nottinghamshire
Durham
Somerset
Middlesex

Division 2:


Lancashire
Northamptonshire
Hampshire
Worcestershire
Essex
Derbyshire
Surrey

Division 3:

Kent
Gloucestershire
Glamorgan
Leicestershire
new team 1
new team 2
new team 3


If the 3 leading minor counties were drawn in based on the 2014 Unicorns Minor Counties Championship, then this would mean Staffordshire, Wiltshire and either Cumberland or Herefordshire would be included.

If the 3 teams were drawn from the Associate nations then that would likely be Ireland, Scotland and the Netherlands.

The most workable outcome would probably be to draw on either the finalists of the Unicorns Championship and one associate team (Ireland or Scotland), or to draw on the winner of the Unicorns Championship and two associate teams (Ireland and Scotland; I ignore the Netherlands because the Dutch first-class record in the ICC Intercontinental Cup is much poorer than either Scotland's or Ireland's and the Dutch themselves aren't that interested in the longer form of the game as domestically the Dutch clubs were opposed to the 2-day tournament the KNCB wanted to introduce and they just let it die when scheduling conflicts kept it from being implemented in the year of its proposal).

Dobell's speculation at the end though shows how woefully informed some of the commentators/writers are in cricket :no :no :

It is understood, however, that Cricket Scotland have yet to be approached about such a possibility and may be reluctant to compromise their international status and the prospect of playing Test cricket


1. Scotland playing regularly in any shaken up county championship does not compromise their international status anymore than Namibia playing regularly in South Africa's provincial 3-day first-class tournament compromises Namibia's international status.

2. At least up until 2000, Scotland and Ireland actually had first-class status whenever they were playing each other or whenever they were playing English first-class counties and the ECB deemed the match to be so. This is a direct result of the rather complicated governance structure for cricket in the British Isles that existed prior to 1993-1997 (when Scotland (1994) and Ireland (1993) joined the ICC separately from the governance structures of the Test and County Cricket Board (TCCB), the National Cricket Association (NCA) and the Cricket Council; and when the TCCB, NCA and Cricket Council were merged to become the ECB in 1997). From the 1800s until 2000, Ireland and Scotland used to have an annual (usually) first-class match between themselves (alternating the venue between Scotland and Ireland each year). These matches remained first-class even after Scotland and Ireland basically cut administrative ties with England and the ECB came into existence and to the best of my knowledge the basis on which they remained first-class has not changed. Which means that Scotland and Ireland should still be able to play against each other and the game should count as first-class even outside the ICC Intercontinental Cup. The advent of the Intercontinental Cup in 2004 means that the Scotland v Ireland first-class fixture is now subsumed within that competition, but if one of them were to drop out of the competition they should still be able to organize a first-class fixture against the other if they wanted. Despite this residual sort of semi-first-class status for matches which would have been termed as domestic matches up until 1993, Scotland's international status is not affected or compromised or threatened.

3. Scotland playing regularly in the county championship does not compromise their prospect for playing test cricket. The only way they can play test cricket is:

(a) follow the ICC full membership guidelines; apply and then become a full member

(b) win the current 2015-2017 ICC Interncontinental Cup and be guaranteed 4 5-day matches against the bottom ranked full member

However, only option (a) really guarantees test cricket is played since as far as I can tell the ICC haven't actually confirmed that the four 5-day matches against the bottom ranked full member will actually have test status as opposed to just first-class status and be considered an "unofficial test" much like A team tests. Additionally the entire proposal is silent on what happens after the "test challenge" is completed; does the associate nation get test status until the next "test challenge" and have to win the next ICC Intercontinental Cup to compete in the next "test challenge"? does the associate have to win the "test challenge" to get (or keep) test status until the next challenge?

And given the sorry tale of the proposed ICC World Test Championship (which was intended to replace the Champions Trophy and first approved in 2010 with the first championship expected to be held in 2013..and then postponed to 2017...before that was cancelled and replaced by...the Champions Trophy - a proper zombie tournament if ever there was any given it has risen from the dead twice now), it remains to be seen if the ICC Test Challenge in 2018 will actually happen...
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby pompeymeowth » Sat May 23, 2015 5:23 pm

Can you imagine what cricket might be like in 20 years time? In little more than a decade T20 has all but finished the CC. Once it's gone it's gone.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Alviro Patterson » Fri May 29, 2015 11:57 pm

Proposing a three tier County Championship of seven will not only lower the number of matches, but also the standard of counties.

Rather than small Division Two counties planning to win promotion to Division One, they are going to be embroiled in a relegation battle and at further risk of losing their talented prospects to a Division One club, or to a club who are promotion contenders.

For the small counties to survive and function, they will prioritise the limited overs formats ahead of the County Championship. Net result England might develop more limited overs specialists, but at the expense of test players.

As for Scotland and Ireland, if they want to play meaningful red ball cricket for development purposes, then play 2nd XI County Championship cricket.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Aidan11 » Sat May 30, 2015 11:20 am

Scotland and Irealnd are not counties so I don't even understand how it can be called a County Championship.

Considering the work and conditions Durham had to put in to become the 18th County I don't see how anyone else could come in just on the strength of playing in a few one day tournaments. As for combined counties such as Devon & Cornwall....Don't get me started.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby dan08 » Thu Jun 04, 2015 10:17 pm

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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Alviro Patterson » Thu Jun 04, 2015 11:57 pm

dan08 wrote:Some valid points made by KP: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricke ... -side.html


Finally, someone speaks out about how ridiculous it is playing Twenty20 cricket immediately before or after a County Championship match. Not only for players but also for spectators trying to keep up with the cricket, especially those who play on a weekend or midweek evening.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Alviro Patterson » Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:56 pm

Eoin Morgan also speaks out at the hectic County Cricket scheduling

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/33022304

Bad enough having to play six days of cricket on the spin, but to travel to Cardiff and Southampton as well must take it out on the players. Then on Middlesex's day off, they embark on a 3 hour + trip to Yorkshire for a County Championship match. I'll be amazed if any player doesn't suffer from burnout after that marathon.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby from_the_stands » Wed Jul 22, 2015 7:50 am

How about this;

Play the 50 over comp in spring, as happens in Australia. Divide the 18 teams into north & south conferences, where they play each other once (8 games), with the top 4 in each conference then going into a knock-out phase, with the final at Lord's. The format needs to stay at 50 overs if England ever want to win the World Cup.

For the County Championship, use the same conference system, and take the top three teams from each to commence in division one. Each of the six teams play each other twice during the season, with the top 2 teams playing in a final! In division 2, the 12 remaining teams stay in their conferences and play each other twice during the season. The top team from each div 2 conference then plays a promotion/relegation play-off against the lowest ranked team (north & south) in the top division. This would mean 10 games of regular season first class fixtures, which pretty much mirrors what goes on in most other Test match nations.

Play the T20 comp over the school holidays, using the same structure as the 50 over comp, and throw as many bells and whistles into the mix as is humanly possible. Have 4 imports per team, because the local talent can't cut it spread around 18 teams. Have 2 imports per team in the other formats. Heck, have an all star game mid season!

So in summary;

8 (+3) days for the 50 over comp.
40 (+5) days for the County championship.
8 (+3) days for the T20*

56 playing days in total, with a possible 11 more days for finals/play-offs/knock-outs. *The T20 comp could be extended, with inter-conference fixtures, say three over a three year cycle, making for 11 games each before play-offs.

Job done.

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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Aidan11 » Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:16 pm

Yorkshire are against pruning the CC.

Quite right too.


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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby hopeforthebest » Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:49 pm

I heard the Somerset chairman on the radio a week or so ago and he was determined to protect the T20 county competition and was indicating his willingness to reduce the CC games to do so. It seems to be that so many Counties have fallen into the hands of business men who see everything in cash terms.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby westoelad » Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:24 pm

Aidan11 wrote:Yorkshire are against pruning the CC.

Quite right too.


http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/cr ... -1-7428474

But PCA are in favour and they have been the dissenting voice in the past.
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Re: The future of County Cricket

Postby Alviro Patterson » Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:06 pm

Aidan11 wrote:Yorkshire are against pruning the CC.

Quite right too.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/cr ... -1-7428474


Arthur's proposals still has the issues of fixture congestion, unless if he wants the County Cricket season to start in late March and finish in early October. The main reason why there is fewer days of cricket in August is because the limited overs knockout stages take place then.

Starting the RL one Day Cup in May makes sense as preparation for the Champions Trophy and World Cup competitions.
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