Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby sussexpob » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:59 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Fair enough. Just that there's another side to it, which was far more exposing. And it's not just that his tenures with England were unsuccessful, for a variety of reasons, but his reputation was damaged through 1) Crashing the team when in charge through internal divisions brought about by unpopular training methods that led to outright rebellion 2)Crashing the team through being wedded to tactics that wouldn't work and he seemed unable to change. Towards the end he appeared to only be having a negative influence, seemingly demonstrated by the immediate improvements when he left. It's easy to understand why he has a poor reputation.

I've heard it said that Flower got his micro-management method from Moores. Can't know if that's true. Though Flower gives a lot of credit to Moores for his coaching ideas.


I was reading point 1 thinking "well, this is Andy Flower without the rebellion", then got to the last line. It certainly makes sense with what we know about the players reaction to his style, but it does leave the question on how Flower was able to maintain that style without similar immediate problems? The problems came 4 to 5 years later, in an enraged flooding of BS, but at the start everything was pretty rosey.

Id hazard a guess that the difference was Moores had cross over players from Fletcher. As those big influential players dropped out (Vaughan, KP lost his captaincy and went back to the ranks, Flintoff, Tresco, Sijo, Harmison, Hoggard) and were replaced with the newer players in the team, Flower was able to continue the policy with less (at the time) influential players.

Knowing what I know of Moores at Sussex, Id suggest he was Flower-Lite. He did pay creedance to modern day scientific approaches to things like Diets, but he wasnt the unfetted and narrow minded flower like person who was all encompassing.
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby sussexpob » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:01 pm

I take your point regarding his reputation though. I guess you are right with regards to his general reputation, but Splinters has been a critic of him at Lancs, which I think is incredibly harsh! The members seemed to blame him for everything post April 2014, without really taking a step back and seeing what he acheieved with a very limited resource and team.
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:20 pm

sussexpob wrote: it does leave the question on how Flower was able to maintain that style without similar immediate problems? The problems came 4 to 5 years later, in an enraged flooding of BS, but at the start everything was pretty rosey.


According to Swann, they resented being patronised, and being treated with a lack of dignity. He mentions usually a time when they had lost to NZ and Moores immediately forced the whole team out to practice in front of the press. Of course, it's possible that people might resent Moores for things they buy into with Flower because AF was a great international player with a reputation to match. But most damning for Moores was that other coaches took over and immediately did much better with similar teams (though the ODI side changed a lot once Mooresism was thrown out). When the only thing that changed was the coach.

The impression you got was of players who resented playing for the coach, and who were inhibited by him. And it didn't help that everyone with an opinion on the subject called out Moores for his oppressive influence on the side at the WC in Australia, and then subsequently appeared to be proved right. Unfairly, that gave everyone the opportunity to look down on him.
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby sussexpob » Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:37 pm

Swann became an apparent key member of Flower's dressing room clique, so Id take that with a pinch of salt. I am pretty sure at the time Swann was one of the few outspoken defenders of Moores. I guess its hard to come into a dressing room with a notorious captain struggling at the end of his career to be fit, being in and out, the replacement spending his winter drinking through a series of disasters, and the previous hands of coach getting the boot.... and really stamp your authority on a team. And just as Fletcher's style of coaching had reached its sell by date at his end, so to had Flowers, so the second coming was a truly misguided piece of work. The team needed a departure from the all encompassing machine of Flower, just as they did need something more strict and inflexible after Fletcher.

I have my opinion that they only went to Moores to block any hope of KP playing in the team. And while I accept that the ODI team was an embarresment under Moores, I dont think him or Ashley Giles had any say over selection or style. Even his robotic comments about "data" seemed to suggest he wasnt really knowing what he was doing, that there was an off field plan he was being told to follow.

But thats me..... I am convinced that Andy Flower remains incredibly influential, as I see him all over the teams since he left, the same press rubbish, the same ODI style (until Bayliss represents a significant departure, but I have the feeling Bayliss has very little say on the test team)
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby Durhamfootman » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:35 pm

sussexpob wrote:Lancs got relegated after he left. He won a championship with them, the next man couldnt keep them up.

the next man had to play all his matches at OT, instead of on a 2 day 'lottery' pitch at Aigburth, that his players had several chances to get used to playing on. I seem to remember that the redevelopment at OT was completed (or completed enough) before the end of that season, but he tried to keep playing in Liverpool.

competely devalued the CC title, for me.... every bit as much as it would have done had Somerset won the title this year
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby Alviro Patterson » Thu Nov 17, 2016 3:36 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:He was a two time loser with England, and hugely protected by the press (rather than being over criticised, he was backed almost to the end). Hardly surprising his reputation. His consultancy has just taken a decent Notts side down too. Maybe it feels like his success with the counties was half a generation ago?

I thought he took Lancs down too? Could be wrong.


Yep, Lancs went down the following season of winning the County Championship under Moores though he did get them back up at the 1st attempt.

From an outsiders view, Moores did not leave much of a legacy at Old Trafford despite his success. One thing I noticed in Roses matches under Giles is he gave players from the academy/2nd XI a fair opportunity at 1st team level.

As for Moores, he has players at his disposal to take Notts back up to Division One at the 1st time of asking.
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby westoelad » Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:51 pm

Alviro Patterson wrote:
As for Moores, he has players at his disposal to take Notts back up to Division One at the 1st time of asking.

Not so sure that Notts will come straight back up. Rather like Durham, a spell in the 2nd division may be no bad thing . Need a clear out imo of old guard Wessels, Lumb, even Brendan Taylor and faithful servant Reid is now 38 year old. Good opportunity than for Moores to regain credibility.
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby Making_Splinters » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:37 pm

AP has been banned for two years by CSA following his fixing hearing.
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby Making_Splinters » Tue Dec 27, 2016 8:59 pm

Well Giles has gone, looks as if there is going to be restructuring before we announce his replacement.

Chapple has been announced as acting Head Coach and Chilton as acting Assistant Coach
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby westoelad » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:54 pm

Making_Splinters wrote:Well Giles has gone, looks as if there is going to be restructuring before we announce his replacement.

Chapple has been announced as acting Head Coach and Chilton as acting Assistant Coach

Given that it's taken so long to agree to Giles release suggests they've been waiting until they found a suitable replacement. The fact that they've named interim replacements suggests the desired applicant is currently in employment elsewhere.
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby Making_Splinters » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:27 pm

westoelad wrote:
Making_Splinters wrote:Well Giles has gone, looks as if there is going to be restructuring before we announce his replacement.

Chapple has been announced as acting Head Coach and Chilton as acting Assistant Coach

Given that it's taken so long to agree to Giles release suggests they've been waiting until they found a suitable replacement. The fact that they've named interim replacements suggests the desired applicant is currently in employment elsewhere.


I suspect that Glen was always the replacement for Giles, the change has just happened sooner than expected in the long term plan.
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby Making_Splinters » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:38 am

Glen and a Chilton have been named as the coaches for next season properly now.
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby Making_Splinters » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:49 am

Obviously devastated to hear that Smith has been forced in retirement, but have to admit that it wasn't unexpected. An absolutely fantastic player when fit, sadly that was far too infrequently to do justice to his talents.

As always we've been linked to some big signings, Vilas and Chanderpaul on Kolpak deals, but we'll have to see if anything actually happens on them. It rarely does with us.
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby westoelad » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:16 am

Making_Splinters wrote:Obviously devastated to hear that Smith has been forced in retirement, but have to admit that it wasn't unexpected. An absolutely fantastic player when fit, sadly that was far too infrequently to do justice to his talents.

As always we've been linked to some big signings, Vilas and Chanderpaul on Kolpak deals, but we'll have to see if anything actually happens on them. It rarely does with us.

Just been confirmed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/38764605
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Re: Bloomin' Heck: The Red Rose 2016

Postby Making_Splinters » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:55 pm

westoelad wrote:
Making_Splinters wrote:Obviously devastated to hear that Smith has been forced in retirement, but have to admit that it wasn't unexpected. An absolutely fantastic player when fit, sadly that was far too infrequently to do justice to his talents.

As always we've been linked to some big signings, Vilas and Chanderpaul on Kolpak deals, but we'll have to see if anything actually happens on them. It rarely does with us.

Just been confirmed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/38764605


Excellent news, though do have to remember that AP is, well one would assume, not coming back next season.
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