Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

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Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby The Professor » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:56 pm

Sounds a very Brexit-y statement but...on a day dominated by South Africans performing admirably in the One Day Cup; are there too many or do they add to the rich variety of the game?
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby westoelad » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:33 am

The Professor wrote:Sounds a very Brexit-y statement but...on a day dominated by South Africans performing admirably in the One Day Cup; are there too many or do they add to the rich variety of the game?

It's a yes to both. Undoubtedly top class NQE players, whether kolpak or overseas, enhance the game.They should be limited. Hampshire, for example, field an attack solely comprising kolpak and overseas , Steyn, Abbott, Edwards and Berg. If every county did that England would never have an attack. Two per county would seem a sensible compromise.
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby st_brendy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:18 pm

The Professor wrote:Sounds a very Brexit-y statement but...on a day dominated by South Africans performing admirably in the One Day Cup; are there too many or do they add to the rich variety of the game?


Both sides had one kolpak player each, and one overseas player each. And three of those four actually have pretty quiet games.

We started eight English players, seven of whom came through our academy. Kent meanwhile started nine English players (I'm not sure exactly how many came through their academy, but no doubt the majority - although I think Qayyum and Podmore both came from Middlesex).

That said, I don't particularly mind what the split is. So long as the non-English qualified players are good enough, then I'm happy to welcome with open arms. I want to see the best players possible.

(It's also not just about nationality. If we had picked Jimmy Adams yesterday - another home-grown product, but approaching retirement now - he would have prevented young Tom Alsop for playing. And whilst Stevens' record speaks for itself, he's 42 years old. The fact that the likes of Adams and Stevens are qualified to play for England is somewhat irrelevant, because they're never going to be called up now - so why categorise them different to a kolpak for example?)
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:38 pm

Kolpacks and overseas are fine if they bring the standard up, because it creates a more competitive league for young England players to develop in. But if it merely extends mediocrity, then it isn't all that helpful. Getting Morkel into the CC has to be a good thing I think.

I presume the Kolpack will be gone once the UK leaves the EU. Wasn't that why there was a glut of such signings last summer?
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby westoelad » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:23 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Kolpacks and overseas are fine if they bring the standard up, because it creates a more competitive league for young England players to develop in. But if it merely extends mediocrity, then it isn't all that helpful. Getting Morkel into the CC has to be a good thing I think.

I presume the Kolpack will be gone once the UK leaves the EU. Wasn't that why there was a glut of such signings last summer?

A modified Kolpack could still apply to permit players from countries which have trade agreements with the UK. UK will hopefully have new trade agreements with S.Africa and Caribbean countries which is where the majority of the better Kolpacks come from.Irish players are now technically overseas.
Nothing wrong with the balance of the two finalists yesterday but I don't think that was the norm team for Hants this season. Must admit that I got far more satisfaction from Durham's Academy developed champions of 2013 than the 2008 champions containing several "passports of convenience" .
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby st_brendy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:30 pm

westoelad wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Kolpacks and overseas are fine if they bring the standard up, because it creates a more competitive league for young England players to develop in. But if it merely extends mediocrity, then it isn't all that helpful. Getting Morkel into the CC has to be a good thing I think.

I presume the Kolpack will be gone once the UK leaves the EU. Wasn't that why there was a glut of such signings last summer?

A modified Kolpack could still apply to permit players from countries which have trade agreements with the UK. UK will hopefully have new trade agreements with S.Africa and Caribbean countries which is where the majority of the better Kolpacks come from.Irish players are now technically overseas.
Nothing wrong with the balance of the two finalists yesterday but I don't think that was the norm team for Hants this season. Must admit that I got far more satisfaction from Durham's Academy developed champions of 2013 than the 2008 champions containing several "passports of convenience" .


It was.

Fidel and Abbott have played just two one-day matches between them.

Whereas Adams (home/academy-grown), Taylor (home/academy-grown) and Topley (home/English-grown) have all played multiple matches between them.
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby westoelad » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:06 pm

St.B Fact is 70% of CC wickets Hants took last season were by non -English players i.e. Abbott,Berg,Edwards,Wheal,Holland and Ervine. That's got to be impeding the development of English born bowlers which is the thread topic. As far as I can recall the only players Hampshire have developed for England are Dawson, Vince and Crane all of whom have been quickly found lacking. If they wish to go down the costly ready made route ,all well and good until the entrepreneur gets sick and deserts you.Developing your own is the only successful long term policy.
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby st_brendy » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:23 pm

westoelad wrote:St.B Fact is 70% of CC wickets Hants took last season were by non -English players i.e. Abbott,Berg,Edwards,Wheal,Holland and Ervine. That's got to be impeding the development of English born bowlers which is the thread topic. As far as I can recall the only players Hampshire have developed for England are Dawson, Vince and Crane all of whom have been quickly found lacking. If they wish to go down the costly ready made route ,all well and good until the entrepreneur gets sick and deserts you.Developing your own is the only successful long term policy.


I don't recall ever arguing against that.

But cricket is three formats, not one. (And, for that matter, cricket is also about scoring runs not just taking wickets)

You said yesterday wasn't a normal team for us. I disputed that. It was a one-day match, and that was a normal one-day team for us. If you want to have a go at our four day team, then fine. But don't use yesterday to do that. There was nothing abnormal about us yesterday, and seven academy-grown players were selected.

(Alsop, Weatherley, Taylor and McManus have all played for the England U19s in recent years I believe - indeed, I believe the first three all captained the team at various points. Not that I particularly mind either way. As I've already said, it's all about quality of player for me, rather than age, birth place or nationality.)
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby westoelad » Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:45 pm

st_brendy wrote:
westoelad wrote:St.B Fact is 70% of CC wickets Hants took last season were by non -English players i.e. Abbott,Berg,Edwards,Wheal,Holland and Ervine. That's got to be impeding the development of English born bowlers which is the thread topic. As far as I can recall the only players Hampshire have developed for England are Dawson, Vince and Crane all of whom have been quickly found lacking. If they wish to go down the costly ready made route ,all well and good until the entrepreneur gets sick and deserts you.Developing your own is the only successful long term policy.


I don't recall ever arguing against that.

But cricket is three formats, not one. (And, for that matter, cricket is also about scoring runs not just taking wickets)

You said yesterday wasn't a normal team for us. I disputed that. It was a one-day match, and that was a normal one-day team for us. If you want to have a go at our four day team, then fine. But don't use yesterday to do that. There was nothing abnormal about us yesterday, and seven academy-grown players were selected.

(Alsop, Weatherley, Taylor and McManus have all played for the England U19s in recent years I believe - indeed, I believe the first three all captained the team at various points. Not that I particularly mind either way. As I've already said, it's all about quality of player for me, rather than age, birth place or nationality.)

No problem with that at all. Different opinions is what a forum is all about.
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby sussexpob » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:55 am

The ECB passed a regulation essentially ending a lot of Kolpak's access to the English county scene, and what was the result? I am pretty sure as they thinned out, so has the quality of players coming through the England setup. In fact, they results of the policy were so perfectly in unison with a visible drop in standards of players arriving at the national team, its pretty hard to conclude anything other than a "cause and effect" type scenario. This is the only real quantifiable evidence available in cricket, although one could also suggest that England maintained a side that reached number one in the world after/during the Kolpak era, maintaining actually quite a lot of International players who were born in South Africa and came to represent us. If you are telling me English cricket is better without Prior, Strauss and Kevin Pietersen, then I think you need sectioning.

Much is made of Germany's masterplan of the 2000s, the whole shake up off the national game to get youth playing and up to standard, which is an often cited reason why in 2014 they suddenly had a young generation of ultra-gifted players coming through that won a world cup. Not much mentioned is the fact that this run parallel with the abandonment of the severe restrictions to foreign players, which was removed at the same time. Think it went from roughly 50 to 250 foreign players overnight.... net effect? A quality batch of Germans won the world cup, battle hardened and with the required talent. They got football, they were simply good enough. They played in better leagues, more competitive. We had something like 3 or 4 Champions Leagues with a German team in the final, one was an all German affair.

The fact is, what actual evidence is there to suggest that limiting player numbers in a domestic scene leads to problems for a national team? There is an equal argument which suggest that quality is better than quantity, and that the overall standard surely assists with that quality, it prepares people to a better standard. I favour the latter, and I think it is proved in the available data you can see. If more players, and not quality matters, then start picking from minor counties then. If it doesnt matter who they are playing against, then surely we are going to unearth legends?

County cricket is also dying. People might differ, but what motivates people to spend a day and their money at a county game? Is it seeing 4 20 year old prospects barely up to standard in a dross standard game, or is it seeing Morkel and Abbott charging in? I think there is absolutely no doubt in my mind one of the major issues with English cricket dying on its arse is the fact that we no longer see enough imports in the game to attract crowds in. I remember years ago going to watch a struggling Glamorgan team play Sussex, and they had Waqar Younis charging in bowling 95mph and swinging it on a hoop. Whens the last time a world best player has played in county cricket? We abandoned that culture and made it toxic for these types of players.

Id remove all restrictions and allow counties to sign as many overseas players as they can afford. In fact, Id go further....id invite foreign boards to send younger prospects or inexperienced test players to teams on a reciprocal basis. Get players playing in English conditions and visa versa. Get interesting young quality future test players in the mix here.
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby The Professor » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:08 pm

Good post SP
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby westoelad » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:35 pm

It's an irrefutable argument that top class imports enhance the county scene but the fact is that this level of player is no longer available long term because of increased international programmes and franchises T20. I've long advocated a reciprocal arrangement with other countries for young players-Durham had such an arrangement with Canterbury coordinated by Paul Wiseman. The chief obstacle to developing potential England is the timing of CC schedule. I can't see any advantage in playing run of the mill imports to the exclusion of young England qualified players. Results shouldn't be the be all and all -personally I gain as much, if not more, pleasure from a young local player breaking through than winning an individual game.
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby Alviro Patterson » Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:26 am

sussexpob wrote:
County cricket is also dying. People might differ, but what motivates people to spend a day and their money at a county game? Is it seeing 4 20 year old prospects barely up to standard in a dross standard game, or is it seeing Morkel and Abbott charging in? I think there is absolutely no doubt in my mind one of the major issues with English cricket dying on its arse is the fact that we no longer see enough imports in the game to attract crowds in. I remember years ago going to watch a struggling Glamorgan team play Sussex, and they had Waqar Younis charging in bowling 95mph and swinging it on a hoop. Whens the last time a world best player has played in county cricket? We abandoned that culture and made it toxic for these types of players.

Id remove all restrictions and allow counties to sign as many overseas players as they can afford. In fact, Id go further....id invite foreign boards to send younger prospects or inexperienced test players to teams on a reciprocal basis. Get players playing in English conditions and visa versa. Get interesting young quality future test players in the mix here.


Kane Williamson is coming to Yorkshire soon, can't wait for The Roses to see him and Joe Root bat in tandem :D

A relaxation of rules in signing Overseas players will be needed from 2020 if the standard of County Cricket is to be maintained at a decent level. The IPL having it's own window in the Future Tours Programme and The Hundred will be an impact on the English game. There just isn't enough First Class standard players who can fill a void for prolonged periods. For example I dread to think what team Yorkshire will field in future editions of the Royal London One Day Cup minus Root, Bairstow, Plunkett, Rashid, Willey, Ballance, Bresnan, Lyth, Kohler-Cadmore, Leaning and Rafiq when they are tapped up to play in The Hundred or representing England.
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby westoelad » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:37 am

What's Ben Coad done to upset you?
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Re: Is Kolpak limiting chances for young English players?

Postby sussexpob » Tue Jul 03, 2018 10:37 am

Westo,

The peak Kolpak game is often seen as that 2008 Northants v Leicestershire game. That was the one where people went ballistic that so many "run of the mill" South Africans and what not were flooding our game. There was 1595 all format international caps playing in that game. Ackerman and Dippenaar were brilliant plus 40 average county bats. Allenby would have certainly played for England had he qualified, average 38 with the bat and 25 with the ball. Claude Henderson has more first class wickets at a better average than Graeme Swann. Dillon Du Preez averaged 21 per wicket in FC and played IPL, again a player that probably plays for England. Jermaine Lawson took 59 wickets at 29 in tests. Wan der Wath 25 per wicket in FC games and could bat a bit. Klusener was arguably the most influential player in the modern day limited overs game and averaged 40/30 respectively with bat and ball in first class. Boye and Hall were useful multiple capped international all rounders.

Out of the English cricketers who played that game, Paul Nixon played 20 times for England the year before. Sales was a very good county pro over the years, and Riki Wessels (counted as English qualified) has been a decent bat. The rest you can basically forget about. Fodder. Rubbish.

Who are the run of the mill guys playing in this game on Kolpak deals? Johann Du Toit is the only really average inclusion, but then again he'd probably walk into Leicestershires squad at the moment.


40 caps in the last game in 2017 as a comparison...... 12 of those provided by an English opener who has 1 x 50 and a lot of single figure scores in recent times, and has just been released/sacked.
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