The enigma that is Kevin Pietersen

[D/L]

Maybe its just me, but I cant see how such a good performer can be jettisoned as a non team player.... everything else is just by the way side. A team lives and dies by its performance, and in those terms, KP is the best.

I suggest some people review what they think makes a good team. Surely all that matters is contributions and final results?

There have been plenty of “non-team” players in cricket, and other sports, over the years. Clearly, for those who had a reasonably long career, the pros of playing them outweighed the cons.

Is it inconceivable that, with Pietersen, they don’t?

Re being on a mountain on the other end of a rope to a fellow climber, it may be better that the other climber doesn’t detest you than that he is a very good mountaineer.

We dont agree on the Pro's and Con's because, as I have said, I dont consider anything but the Pro's and Con's of his batting career.... and trust me, I would prefer the man with the skills if something goes wrong!

Even if his only reaction was to say, “Whoops, clumsy me!”, before the rope went slack?

What is most surprising about this thread is the apparent conviction amongst some that Pietersen could have done nothing bad enough to merit his exclusion from the squad.

[sussexpob]

Indeed D/L, I'm not going to argue that it isnt conjecture. Certainly none of what I said can be related to facts, only to my personal insight, as referenced by a lot of language that acknowledges that ( "I guess/I trust/ I honestly dont know/ I would argue, etc etc)....

But then again, if discussion board where the sole place for discussion of facts, they might be a bit boring :/

[sussexpob]

What is most surprising about this thread is the apparent conviction amongst some that Pietersen could have done nothing bad enough to merit his exclusion from the squad.

Not really. In fact, you will find evidence in my last post you quoted above that acknowledges KP may have a darker side, be outspoken, and acted without thinking...For me it simply revolves around his batting ability.

[D/L]

One party created the situation, but then again, the other had the responsibilty to manage the situation. The ECB failed at every hurdle to contain this and stop it getting out of hand, and now seemingly, are still struggling to come up with a satisfactory resolution. In terms of management you have to be prepared for this, or have the capacity to deal with it... considering how many press relation people are employed and other similar types, one could easily state that their management has been piss poor at every stage...

This is just yet more conjecture.

It should be obvious that some situations are impossible to manage to the satisfaction of all parties.

However, I suggest that in this case, within the England camp (players, officials etc.), there are still quite a few more happy with the outcome, as it stands at the moment, than there are in the Pietersen camp.

[D/L]

What is most surprising about this thread is the apparent conviction amongst some that Pietersen could have done nothing bad enough to merit his exclusion from the squad.

Not really. In fact, you will find evidence in my last post you quoted above that acknowledges KP may have a darker side, be outspoken, and acted without thinking...For me it simply revolves around his batting ability.

I noticed that, sp. Some, though, seem not to share that insight.

Regarding Pietersen’s, or anyone’s, ability (at anything), there must come a point at which everything does not simply revolve around that ability to the extent that any type of behaviour is indulged so as not to lose their contribution.

[m@tt]

It's been badly managed by all parties.

One party created the situation, but then again, the other had the responsibilty to manage the situation. The ECB failed at every hurdle to contain this and stop it getting out of hand, and now seemingly, are still struggling to come up with a satisfactory resolution. In terms of management you have to be prepared for this, or have the capacity to deal with it... considering how many press relation people are employed and other similar types, one could easily state that their management has been piss poor at every stage.

I dont want to hear Flower demanding apologises from players, I firstly want him or the ECB to apologise for the shame their input and handling has caused the image of our countries game.

Flower has already admitted he could have handled things better - though he also stressed that there is more to this than a few texts and Twitter.

The ECB eaks are very regrettable and there should be some sort of internal investigation into it.

Sadly, I think the only way the ECB could have contained it would be to have let KP have everything he wanted.

I think that the open feedback loop and team "post mortems" you describe would not result in players disgruntingly talking outside the team if they were the democracy fest that you suggest, and if KP felt his comments or feedback was being listened to or acknowledged, he wouldnt go speaking behind peoples back.... especially when by all accounts he is a very straight talking and confrontational character(certainly not scared of a fall out with people, or making such things public knowledge).

Of course, there will be grumblings outside the dressing room. But there needs to be some common sense (or maybe paranoia) about it. I wouldn't dream of slagging off my boss or company anywhere on the Internet, especially not on social media. I wouldn't text it either (and if I knew someone working for a competitor, I certainly wouldn't text them about it). And I don't work for a big company, it has under 20 employees. [/quote]

A fact that the press overlook when they make remarks about him chasing the money and being a Saffer Mercernary.

True. I don't think the money aspect is that simple. KP loves to be loved. Being a posterboy for the IPL, a tournament with huge crowds in a 1bn-strong country that worships the game is right up his street. Tests against New Zealand in May in front of a League 2 size crowd (fourth tier of English football in case anyone needs to know) isn't quite the same.

This saga has been going on for weeks now and you still don't get it, Shanks. "Team unity" is not about being best buds. It's not about being robots - 11 players who think and act the same. To dumb it down to a single sentence, it's about pulling in the same direction.

Its not about being a robot, but anyone who doesnt agree or follow with the direction that everyone else is pulling in gets dropped for reasons of team unity? Yep, way to make a point.... can you not see the contradiction?

There is no contradiction. Different people with different skills and personalities may take different routes to the same target - as long as those routes don't interfere with each other. 11 robots have the same personality, say the same thing, take the same routes.

Pietersen did use to be part of a united team, pulling in the same direction. Sure he was different, a bit awkward, but he was never a major problem, despite what some people liked to think. Things have changed, sadly and to the detriment of all parties.

[#Brown]

This is an interesting argument...there seems to be an awful lot of repetition with few changing their minds.

The Pro-KP brigade are frustrated that others can seem ignore the great player he is, as even surely the most blinkered can't ignore the individual match-winning impact he can have when playing well.

The anti-kp brigade are frustrated because others cant seem to acknowledge the fact that this whole mess has happened for a reason. There's no smoke without fire, no one would really want a player of his ability dropped purely for reasons of personal dislike, and he has mostly bought this mess upon himself.

Team unity/spirit/direction-pulling or whatever you call it may make some of you laugh for some reason, but the current management set-up do put a lot of faith in it. These players spend so much time in each other's company, especially away from home, and the opinion is that a bunch of happy, comfortable, and confident players will produce better results overall, when compared with a potentially hostile and fractious team environment containing one more talented player. Call it balderdash if you like, but that is what Strauss/Flower believe in and the effective judgement call they're making...and it must be said their overall track record is pretty good.

The one thing English fans can surely all agree on is the frustration at the feeling of waste...being close to becoming something great only for it to all come crashing down behind this veil of sad and stupid circumstances.

[meninblue]

Yes, there was chance that KP could have made a move from an excellent batsman to a great batsman. That chance has been wasted for whatever reason there have been.

[Arthur Crabtree]

This is an interesting argument...there seems to be an awful lot of repetition with few changing their minds.

Hope you haven't just read it all! There has been quite a lot to the argument on both sides, which has been interesting. And some prejudice as well. Which has been less interesting.

Currently, we need to find a way to turn off the press tap. I think just something vaguely positive and supportative from the ECB would help. Or even a plea for space to deal with the issue. Given they've been using the press as an outlet it would be a bit hypocritical, but maybe Strauss could try it. Just back their player, however qualified that might be. The press coverage is making the national team look absurd.

[hopeforthebest]

This is an interesting argument...there seems to be an awful lot of repetition with few changing their minds.

Hope you haven't just read it all! There has been quite a lot to the argument on both sides, which has been interesting. And some prejudice as well. Which has been less interesting.

Currently, we need to find a way to turn off the press tap. I think just something vaguely positive and supportative from the ECB would help. Or even a plea for space to deal with the issue. Given they've been using the press as an outlet it would be a bit hypocritical, but maybe Strauss could try it. Just back their player, however qualified that might be. The press coverage is making the national team look absurd.

AC which prejudice are you referring to? The prejudice of those in favour of KP right or wrong or those in favour of a unified England team.

[Arthur Crabtree]

I did answer this but became worried that it might potential for an argument in it.

I do feel that some are working onwards from a personal dislike of the player. But by no means every poster tending to the ECB view has given that impression of course.

[Arthur Crabtree]

AC which prejudice are you referring to? The prejudice of those in favour of KP right or wrong or those in favour of a unified England team.

There has obviously always been prejudice against KP for his 'South African-ness'? Does that not go without saying? The Michael Henderson tendency.

[meninblue]

Bit of contrast. Change in approach by Morgan. Sighting a opportunity in test team and central contract due to KP being dropped.

Morgan to put Tests above IPL:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-s ... 79659.html

[mikesiva]

Bit of contrast. Change in approach by Morgan. Sighting a opportunity in test team and central contract due to KP being dropped.

Morgan to put Tests above IPL:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-s ... 79659.html

That change in approach could be because of this:

"Certainly Morgan's chances of impressing during the 2012 IPL season were limited as he failed to make it into the Kolkata side, though he has previously gone on record to credit the experience of training alongside players from around the world as hugely beneficial to his learning experience."

[meninblue]

Bit of contrast. Change in approach by Morgan. Sighting a opportunity in test team and central contract due to KP being dropped.

Morgan to put Tests above IPL:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-s ... 79659.html

That change in approach could be because of this:

"Certainly Morgan's chances of impressing during the 2012 IPL season were limited as he failed to make it into the Kolkata side, though he has previously gone on record to credit the experience of training alongside players from around the world as hugely beneficial to his learning experience."

Yeah Mike, I just checked that Morgan did not get a single match in IPl 2012 for Kolkatta. So he has perhaps realized that he is just getting the nets and dressing room exposure in IPL 2012, instead of real time action.