sussexpob wrote:Its not only cricket, but society in general that has the identity dilemma, yet cricket (like boxing's resurgence in the country) is a new phenomenon that has no age old culture really pulling together the bonds of a United Ireland team, and has to fight with a much larger pull of domestic cricket in England to contend with.
This is where the "poaching Irish players" argument that some commentators tout becomes ultimately ridiculous. Many Northern Irish people identify themselves as British only, some identify themselves as Irish (Footballer James McClean took Irish Nationality by choice) and others simply as Northern Irish. Try telling a loyalist they are Irish and you will greatly offend them, tell a Republican they are British, equally so..... a United Irish team panders really only to Republicans, and the net result is you will see a leak of Loyalists towards England.
This is my personal opinion, and there are actually examples that contradict it. Carl Frampton, a Belfast protestant boxer growing up in Tiger Bay (big Unionist area) fought for a United Ireland and married a catholic, and his success in Northern Ireland is having the opposite effect. He rejected any notion that he would prefer to have fought as an amateur under the banner of Britain, and instead seems to indicate he doesn't care what label people give him.
It will be interesting to see how the boxing board issue pans out, because if the Northern Irish Boxing Association gains independence from Ireland like the calls for it suggest, then the Good Friday Agreement provisions that allow for this self national determination type situation could equally result in a Northern Irish cricket board moving towards the same measure quickly.
At the moment, Sport Northern Ireland are not required to fund or acknowledge these independent boards, but the future could change with boxing forcing a legal precedent, and could a separate Ireland and N.Ireland both have test teams.... can either without the other?
cricketfan90 wrote:do we have to have this debate every time Ireland win a game of cricket??? It would be great if they got test status, but it simply wont happen..
dan08 wrote:Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.
As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.
Making_Splinters wrote:dan08 wrote:Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.
As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.
If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.
Very much chicken and egg.
dan08 wrote:Making_Splinters wrote:dan08 wrote:Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.
As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.
If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.
Very much chicken and egg.
Surely they could still play county cricket as domestic players under EU law though. Wouldn't that override the ECB's overseas criteria?
Making_Splinters wrote:dan08 wrote:Making_Splinters wrote:dan08 wrote:Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.
As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.
If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.
Very much chicken and egg.
Surely they could still play county cricket as domestic players under EU law though. Wouldn't that override the ECB's overseas criteria?
Actually, you're right there.
Since I've never really thought in depth about the ins and outs of this I've never really read the full detail of the Full Member stipulation. It only applies to players playing for a Full Member outside of the European Ecconomic Area, and therefore not to Ireland.
I can't see how this would stand up if Ireland became a full member, surely it would be an issue for England to have active Test cricketers from another Full Member playing as domestic players in their league. That said, I am by no means an expert on European trade and employment laws.
ChrisQ wrote:Making_Splinters wrote:dan08 wrote:Making_Splinters wrote:dan08 wrote:Even if Ireland do put in a first-class structure the best Irish players would still go to play in the County Championship anyway so it's not going to make a huge difference.
As for their grounds, put a few temporary stands in and it's no worse than Harare Sports Club - Zimbabwe's home ground.
If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.
Very much chicken and egg.
Surely they could still play county cricket as domestic players under EU law though. Wouldn't that override the ECB's overseas criteria?
Actually, you're right there.
Since I've never really thought in depth about the ins and outs of this I've never really read the full detail of the Full Member stipulation. It only applies to players playing for a Full Member outside of the European Ecconomic Area, and therefore not to Ireland.
I can't see how this would stand up if Ireland became a full member, surely it would be an issue for England to have active Test cricketers from another Full Member playing as domestic players in their league. That said, I am by no means an expert on European trade and employment laws.
Yes it would be an issue and one not readily resolved by the ECB given existing EEA laws.
Making_Splinters wrote:ChrisQ wrote:Making_Splinters wrote:dan08 wrote:Making_Splinters wrote:
If they put in the structure then there would be a justifiable argument for them to be given Test status. As soon as Ireland became a full member, Irish players would no longer qualify as domestic players in England if they had played for Ireland.
Very much chicken and egg.
Surely they could still play county cricket as domestic players under EU law though. Wouldn't that override the ECB's overseas criteria?
Actually, you're right there.
Since I've never really thought in depth about the ins and outs of this I've never really read the full detail of the Full Member stipulation. It only applies to players playing for a Full Member outside of the European Ecconomic Area, and therefore not to Ireland.
I can't see how this would stand up if Ireland became a full member, surely it would be an issue for England to have active Test cricketers from another Full Member playing as domestic players in their league. That said, I am by no means an expert on European trade and employment laws.
Yes it would be an issue and one not readily resolved by the ECB given existing EEA laws.
Well, it would be resolved by Irish cricket having residency criteria to play for Ireland, just like the ECB do.
QUALIFICATIONS OF CRICKETERS TO PLAY FOR ENGLAND
Subject to overriding discretion of the ECB, acting with the consent of the International Cricket Council, a Cricketer will only be qualified to play for England in a Test Match or in a One Day International Match if;
1.1 he is either a British citizen or an Irish citizen; and
1.2.1 he was born within England and Wales; or
1.2.2 he has been resident in England and Wales for the immediately
preceding four consecutive years; and
1.3 he has not during the immediately preceding four consecutive years either played cricket for any Full Member Country outside the EEA at U17 level or above, or played First Class Cricket in any such Full Member Country except as an overseas cricketer under local rules similar to Regulation 3, or in any other circumstances approved by the ECB; and
1.4 he makes, whenever requested by the ECB, a declaration in the form set out in Annex A to the ECB Regulations.
2.1 In the case of a Cricketer seeking to become qualified under 1.2.2 above he will (until he has become qualified to play for England) only be treated as having been resident within England and Wales for the relevant consecutive period if he has spent a minimum of 210 days in each year within England and Wales (for which purpose "year" shall mean a year ending 1st April).
REGULATIONS GOVERNING THE QUALIFICATION AND REGISTRATION OF CRICKETERS FOR COMPETITIVE COUNTY CRICKET
Subject to the overriding discretion of the ECB and subject as provided below, a Cricketer will only be qualified to play in Competitive County Cricket match (a Qualified Cricketer) if;
1.1 he is an EEA national or a national of a state which is a party to an agreement with the EU and its members states providing that their nationals lawfully employed within the EEA shall have employment rights equal to
those of EEA nationals; and
1.2 he has not, within the 12 months leading up 10 April 1 st immediately before the season in question, either played cricket for any Full Member Country outside the EEA at U17 level or above, or played First Class Cricket in any such Full Member Country except as an overseas cricketer under local rules similar to ECB Regulation 3 i(Unqualified Cricketers) or in any circumstances approved by the ECB; and
1.3 he makes, whenever requested by the ECB, a declaration in the form set out in Annex A to ECB Regulations.
clubcricketeradi wrote:After their win versus WI i had opined that test status should not be decided on ODI match, likewise on this bashing match i would not consider them to be out of test status. The paramenters they have to be judged should be the relevant ones, which imo are how much is their bench strength which is important once key players get injured, how good are their key players for test format, how good is their domestic cricketing system to supply the relevant format cricketers, how good they are doing in 4 day matches etc.
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