Ben Stokes

[Albondiga]

Before there are too many stats -- I would like to make a point. ------ you don't get a hundred and take a five fer in a test match against the Aussies unless you have something about you ---- he has made a great start.

He needs to perform well more often but somebody may have just got through to him.

[Alviro Patterson]

Stokes is young and a little inconsistent. Banding stats around that don't work in his favour, is pointless at this stage.

Especially when Stokes has been used as a utility player in his England career to date. Batting between 6 and 8, used as a change bowler or 5th option.

Stokes is a good player to have in any team and brings a lot to the party.

[Making_Splinters]

I'm a tad suprised to see people already denigrating Stokes. The lad is just 23 and has already shown signs of being a truly outstanding player for England. He needs time and the support of the set up willing to take a punt on him and keep him in the side.

It's a bit daft to be talking about consistancy over such a short career.

[sussexpob]

Before there are too many stats -- I would like to make a point. ------ you don't get a hundred and take a five fer in a test match against the Aussies unless you have something about you ---- he has made a great start.

Dwayne Bravo?
Sehwag?
Aamer Sohail?

Some that have done it, not really a list of fine test match allrounders.

[captaincolly]

Would you please name one multi skilled cricketer (medium/fast pace bowling + batsman) from England who you think will giver better batting average and more wickets per test than Ben Stokes.

Is the lack of a excellent all rounder the only reason for losses. Were the matches not lost by specialist batsman and bowlers as well. Haven't there been peaks and lows for specialist batters and bowlers in same tests

As I said, England were successful with a 4 man attack in the past, and I could name you a long list of players I expect to average more than 35 with the bat in tests, or average less than 40 per wicket. As for lack of excellent all rounders, we do have a guy in CC who averages 38 with bat, 23 with ball, I don't think he is anywhere near the radar (Gidman).

Gidman is a good player, was at Durham for a while but couldn't get into the team on a regular basis ( although he was unlucky to be injured when chances certainly would have come ) so his stats are almost exclusively from division 2. I'd have been happy to have him back with Durham but he went to Notts and was dropped after a poor start to the season.

[captaincolly]

Article in the paper this morning has the records of Botham, Flintoff after each had played 10 tests. 10 tests doesn't prove or disprove anything but for what it's worth:

Stokes 648 runs @ 36 with 2 hundreds/top score 160 /28 wickets @ 40.1
Botham 479 runs @ 43.54 with 3 hundreds/ top score 108/53 wickets @ 17.33
Flintoff 355 runs @ 15.93 /top score 42/ 7 wickets @ 66.42

[sussexpob]

Article in the paper this morning has the records of Botham, Flintoff after each had played 10 tests. 10 tests doesn't prove or disprove anything but for what it's worth:

Stokes 648 runs @ 36 with 2 hundreds/top score 160 /28 wickets @ 40.1
Botham 479 runs @ 43.54 with 3 hundreds/ top score 108/53 wickets @ 17.33
Flintoff 355 runs @ 15.93 /top score 42/ 7 wickets @ 66.42

In that ten test, I would hazard a guess that Flintoff played in the end of 1998 series vs a very strong South African unit, then played the series away from home against the very same strong South African team, and then went to India away (as they picked Chalky White for the Windies and Zimbabwe tests at home in 2000).

England's toughest away tour, and two series against a strong South Africa team that in 1999 were arguably the best side in the world, or certainly very close to Australia at that point.

[Gingerfinch]

Stokes has certainly looked better than Freddie did in his early days. Flintoff obviously improved no end, with bat and ball. Will Stokes?

[Aidan11]

Stokes has certainly looked better than Freddie did in his early days. Flintoff obviously improved no end, with bat and ball. Will Stokes?

If the management treat him right then yes. If he does become the entertainer that Flintoff & Botham were then he will also need to handle the intense media pressure.

Stokes already has previous and it will be brought up every now and again so he has to get used to it.

[KipperJohn]

Stokes isn't a 'new Botham or Flintoff' - he's an individual in his own right. He's got something about him but to heap all this debate on him is nonsense. Let's see how he develops in the various disciplines - he'll have great days, good days, bad days and terrible days.
Presumably the coaches won't be comparing his stats and such like with past players - they'll simply work with him on his game and how he plays it.

A number of players touted on CMS for a long time are now almost part of the furniture - Ballance, Root,, Stokes, Buttler etc so many posters have got their wish. Let's give them a bit of time and see how they do.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that in a few years time they'll be the 'old guard' with all the baggage of highs and lows that the likes of Cook, Bell, Broad etc now carry!

[meninblue]

Article in the paper this morning has the records of Botham, Flintoff after each had played 10 tests. 10 tests doesn't prove or disprove anything but for what it's worth:

Stokes 648 runs @ 36 with 2 hundreds/top score 160 /28 wickets @ 40.1
Botham 479 runs @ 43.54 with 3 hundreds/ top score 108/53 wickets @ 17.33
Flintoff 355 runs @ 15.93 /top score 42/ 7 wickets @ 66.42

A good start is always better than a bad start. Although it is a very small sample to rate a career, it shows how well the players have handled pressure in comparison and how soon have they adapted from domestic to international level.

[Aidan11]

Stokes isn't a 'new Botham or Flintoff' - he's an individual in his own right. He's got something about him but to heap all this debate on him is nonsense.

True but the media are already calling him the new Flintoff/Botham. That is their nature - a knock like that at Lord's was always going to get the journos excited.

Whether he (or indeed we) like it or not comparisons are inevitable.

[Gingerfinch]

He'd be better off scoring 3 and taking 1-96, and be labelled the next David Capel, to relieve some pressure!

[sussexpob]

Stokes isn't a 'new Botham or Flintoff' - he's an individual in his own right. He's got something about him but to heap all this debate on him is nonsense.

True but the media are already calling him the new Flintoff/Botham. That is their nature - a knock like that at Lord's was always going to get the journos excited.

Whether he (or indeed we) like it or not comparisons are inevitable.

Indeed. Arguing about those matters is like asking the wind to stop blowing. Stokes needs to live with the pressure of his tag and that's that. It may make or break his career in the next 2 years.

Interestingly, I think the obsession with All rounders in England is interesting. Joe Root is beginning to look like the business, yet we are focusing on another guy at the moment like he is the lost son of Bradman, despite his perfomances being not that special aside from a few instances. I mean for all of this Lords stuff, Stokes has utterly failed in limited overs cricket, so his "sample" of performance (which is being ignored) is far bigger than currently appreciated, and his bowling could do with a lot of work.

I cant help but think that people are "Stoking the fire" after Lords, desperately searching for a positive narrative to inject some impetuous into the side. This is why I am sceptical about this Stokes issue, heaping the pressure of performance onto his shoulders now when he is at a formative stage and when its clear he has issues to correct is not clever.

Stokes has a lot of improvements to make, but I guess he could be swept away with this out gushing positivity, the worry is he doesn't knuckle down and gets carried away.

[KipperJohn]

I'll stand by my post - and not just bits of it. All the younger players who are gradually gaining a foothold in international cricket need time, help, encouragement and sound advice.

Some will fall by the wayside but inevitably the cream will rise to the top.