3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby hopeforthebest » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:36 pm

Gingerfinch wrote:
rich1uk wrote:tough school hope when the top wicket taker in the series so far doesn't get into your XI


He doesn't play for Warwickshire :P


Nicely said ginger but that not entirely the reason. Jadeja has played a prominent role in winning games and that trumps wickets taken in a losing cause especially the manner in which most were taken, Jadeja took wickets not had many caught on the boundary when the game was virtually over. Including Cook hurts like hell, I'm inclined to think Patel's performance in this last game deserves the place.
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:36 pm

Since the 2015 Ashes england record reads this.
Win 10 draw 2 lost 10
Too many losses for my liking.

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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:45 pm

Woakes is an injury concern as well according to cricinfo.

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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby sussexpob » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:47 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote: Where England have really floundered is in identifying talent. The spinner/all rounder predeterminism, the continued opener whirlwind, the flawed identification of middle order talent. Too many players are being found out. The A team worked in a period when England were doing well, as a means of finely filtering the best players. The spinners in India should have been pre-tested in A team cricket. England, as in the nineties, are finding out about their players when it is too late.


I dont agree that they are finding out about them too late. That is the short term result of long term mismanagement. I think the truth is, England have scythed through a international generation of available talent by mismanagement, and that now there are no stocks of undamaged players available, are having to turn to reactionary selections based on very small samples of displayed talent. The best county players have been tried and failed. So you keep going down levels. It doesnt make sense.

So Duckett found his way into the team as a matter of desperation, but only because Hales/Ballance/Vince/Taylor/Lyth etc all were poorly managed. Bairstow is only back in because he kept wicket and it gave the team an extra dimension and excuse to pick him, without the gloves he was dead like the others. Yet, in 2012 had we not dumped James Taylor (health issues aside) after two tests, or had we not infact dumped Bairstow after 4 tests and an average of about 35, we might have found these players were made better. Yet the opinion at the time was they didnt suit, they were just not "test mark". Taylor was a weak minded player. Bairstow was dropped because he couldnt play a short ball.

The whole system, far from being about finding players late, is finding them as early as possible. Vince's path was pre-determined all the way to the top, as are others. Yet he goes on an A tour and is ripped apart, and gets a test cap out of it. Far from the information not being available, its simply ignored. Vince scores 17 runs in 5 innnings on a tour and is told hes a test player. Its beyond belief. And what has Vince's failure lead to? Well, if the whole warm up tours and little skills camps are wrong, then f*ck it, pick Duckett!!! He scored a 100 last week.

I think personally there is a wrestling between ideologies going on here. On one side we have a coach who seems to like to pick on instinct, on black and white performance. On the other, we have a back room staff and development system that is geared to engineering cricketers completely in the opposite of results. And the result is, you get two main ideologies forming the basis of the squad.

The first type means players either sink or swin, after which they are quickly dropped. The second means that the player is meant to be and is given more opportunties. When the first fails, its over for them. Bad pick. Bye bye, dont come back. When the second fails, there is no crisis with them, they are good players, they just got unlucky or this and that. Going back to the drawing board with the second type doesnt happen, because to acknowledge major technical errors is to acknowledge the weakness in their own coaching system.

So both are seemingly thrown back to counties and not really given follow up feedback. The first is damaged anyway, the second is perfectly fine and just need to play themselves into form for a second dig at tests, after which they become type one if they fail.
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby Dr Cricket » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:51 pm

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine ... ;type=team
England won the 2nd most since bayliss started but also loss the most.

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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby sussexpob » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:53 pm

There is a third type.... and that is the instant initial success. Hameed did the best thing in the world he could... he made 100 runs on debut, so set the narrative as being a demon bat who had the talent, and that any failure will be ignored as part of his development. Stokes took a 5-for and a 100 on debut series in Australia. That bought him 3 years. Duckett did nothing straight away, he's a goner!!

Id be inclined to suggest that the first 3 or 4 innings for English youngsters in the current system defines their career. Make an impact early and you buy yourself a pressure free development. Fail in the first two tests, and the third becomes a trial.
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:06 pm

Though that might be a product of the press and tv too.

I'd guess Duckett will be played in the next game, though somewhat damaged.
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:21 pm

England's results have to be viewed in context of their difficulty. After the 2013-14 Ashes, England returned to the bottom of a cycle. Results were poor and performances unconvincing. They lost at home to SL and to India on a bright green pitch. KP was sacked. Cook was telling the terminally injured Prior that he had a job for life. Downton was drawing a salary...

Going into 2015, they had a very dense fixture list and started off with a draw against the mediocre West Indies. Cook really should have been moved on, but for the ECB, There Was No Alternative. Given that, a draw with NZ was a good result, then an Ashes win, nearly winning the first Test in UAE, and winning in SA represented a huge over achievement. Then they demolished SL.

The draw with Pakistan will be determined by what happens next. It might be a slightly disappointing outcome in a period where they hugely overachieved, or it might be the start of a fresh slump that will finally see Cook step down.

The big difference under Bayliss, and where he deserves credit, is that ENgland started to appear competent on the field. Cook under Moores you watched through your fingers. Under Bayliss, it looks like there is a motivational intelligence at work. That can only be the influence of the coach.
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:31 pm

Woakes and Anderson took one wicket between them in the match. So Cook thinks he should have picked more pace bowlers.

Arguably, they should have picked another batter rather than Batty, but hard to imagine they needed more pace when the two specialists they picked were so ineffectual.
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby sussexpob » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:35 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Though that might be a product of the press and tv too.

I'd guess Duckett will be played in the next game, though somewhat damaged.


Its hard to differentiate between where the party line from the ECB begins, and where the press ends.
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:37 pm

Forgot about that.
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby sussexpob » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:48 pm

Re-picking Duckett seems a really stupid thing to do. Its like giving him a second phase in tests while still being in the process of acknowledging he wasnt good enough. Like being told to clear out your desk, and on the way out being told you need to attend a meeting for a new project. What do they expect for him to have done to his game in a week to revolutionise it?

I think we can start to give this selection brain fart problem a name..... the Duckett-Ballance syndrome

If Duckett has a future then its after this tour.
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby rich1uk » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:50 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Woakes and Anderson took one wicket between them in the match. So Cook thinks he should have picked more pace bowlers.

Arguably, they should have picked another batter rather than Batty, but hard to imagine they needed more pace when the two specialists they picked were so ineffectual.


overall we did take more wickets with seam than we did with spin however

woakes and anderson rely more on seam movement and convential swing, whereas stokes seems to be better when the ball starts reversing

kind hard to argue one way or the other when only 2 bowlers, 1 seamer and 1 spinner, really had anything to show for it
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby sussexpob » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:55 pm

rich1uk wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Woakes and Anderson took one wicket between them in the match. So Cook thinks he should have picked more pace bowlers.

Arguably, they should have picked another batter rather than Batty, but hard to imagine they needed more pace when the two specialists they picked were so ineffectual.


overall we did take more wickets with seam than we did with spin however

woakes and anderson rely more on seam movement and convential swing, whereas stokes seems to be better when the ball starts reversing

kind hard to argue one way or the other when only 2 bowlers, 1 seamer and 1 spinner, really had anything to show for it



Its not a criticism, but I sense Arthur was more falling back on his own selection ideology he has previously displayed as to the use of seam in these conditions. I tend to agree that Cooks words were a little baffling, as Anderson, Woakes and Stokes in these conditions are adequate. Batty was extra baggage, he should have been replaced for a batter.

Having three spinners is akin to saying that one or if not both my others spinners are terrible. A spinner should be able to bowl a whole day at either ends, so a third is simply not necessary unless you are already in a losing position.
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Re: 3rd Test: India v England at Mohali on Nov 26-30

Postby rich1uk » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:58 pm

sussexpob wrote:
rich1uk wrote:
Arthur Crabtree wrote:Woakes and Anderson took one wicket between them in the match. So Cook thinks he should have picked more pace bowlers.

Arguably, they should have picked another batter rather than Batty, but hard to imagine they needed more pace when the two specialists they picked were so ineffectual.


overall we did take more wickets with seam than we did with spin however

woakes and anderson rely more on seam movement and convential swing, whereas stokes seems to be better when the ball starts reversing

kind hard to argue one way or the other when only 2 bowlers, 1 seamer and 1 spinner, really had anything to show for it



Its not a criticism, but I sense Arthur was more falling back on his own selection ideology he has previously displayed as to the use of seam in these conditions. I tend to agree that Cooks words were a little baffling, as Anderson, Woakes and Stokes in these conditions are adequate. Batty was extra baggage, he should have been replaced for a batter.


dont need to convince me

i'm firmly in the 5 bowlers are enough camp

instead of taking advantage of having 2 all-rounders imo we have wasted the luxury that gives you by picking a 6th bowler that isn't really needed rather than looking to have the extra batsman

an issue that hasn't been helped by the "he is too good to bat at #8" school of thought
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