England tour of India

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Re: England tour of India

Postby alfie » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:59 am

OK I can see people are divided on this...fair enough. There is room for alternative views and either - or both - might achieve the desired result. Or not. But let me introduce my own statistical analysis (and I'm not fussing about bookmakers odds !)

In three days we have seen 16 wickets fall : 3, 5 and 8. Suggests batting gets progressively harder. I'd expect this trend to accelerate.

Over three days the run rate averages out around 3 per over. This is unlikely to increase for the same reason.

So: with 180 overs left , England effectively lead by 107 overs. To avoid defeat , India probably need therefore to bat at least those 107 plus about 40 or so of the remaining 73. Which do you think is easier : to bat whatever they can this morning with the last four batsmen ; and then the rest of day four ; before resuming in the (trickier conditions) of day five against an England attack who by then have been in the field for two days straight...

Or : being run around again today after not much more than a day's break from chasing leather for 578 runs before being put back in to survive over (hopefully well over) 100 overs comprising much of an evening session and an entire last day ?

(Of course if the last four add 150 this is all academic but let us not go there!)

The fallacy in much of the argument I am reading here is that not enforcing the follow on is due to a fear of an unlikely dramatic loss. Now I have no idea what Root and Silverwood think but that is certainly not a factor in my choice of options. Frankly I think the chances of India getting a small lead and skittling England on the last evening are about as remote as that of them chasing down 420 on the last day after England have declared. To be clear : miracles aside , India are not going to win!)

My whole point is that I think batting again , scoring quickly under minimal pressure , and then going for the throat with bowlers who have had a decent rest late in the day before using the likely best bowling conditions of the match on day five to finish the job is the approach that gives England the best chance of getting the win.

Do I think England could win by enforcing the follow on ? Yes I think they could. Although it might be at a bit of a cost to the bowlers for future games , but let that pass. But I also think it gives India a better chance of getting out of this by grinding down tired bowlers. (And obviously the length of time it takes to conclude this current innings is something we do not yet know)

In general I quite like enforcing a follow on when it is an option. Largely because (A) It makes sure you don't waste time making "unnecessary" runs and later regretting it when you run out of overs. and (B) because you can hit a team when they are down - as follow on situations usually arise from a team being bowled out very cheaply.

Neither of these apply here. 180 overs is plenty of time to force a result (If England cannot bowl India out on a fifth day pitch here I doubt they would be able to dismiss them quickly enough following on) and although India will be disappointed with their reply to England's score they are hardly going to be shell shocked batting again if they end up all out for 300 odd. So the follow on in this case is an option but not a must.

And I think it is a second best option in this particular case.

If England take four wickets this morning in the first three overs I might reconsider. But I am not holding my breath :)
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Re: England tour of India

Postby meninblue » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:17 am

Ashwin's capabilities with bat are good. Recently he played a partnership with Vihari at Sydney to draw the test.

Sundar scored a 50 at Gabba in that partnership with Shardul to win the test.

Shahbaz can definitely hold a bat as has been seen in Ranji trophy in some of the innings.

Only Jasprit can't bat in this lineup.

Yes, England are favorites but it will not be easy for England to bowl India within 80 overs twice in conditions where Indian batsmen post big team scores.

Also, Indian spinners bowling in tandem have the ability to pick 5 or 6 wickets in an session. This factor too needs to be considered by England.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby alfie » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:45 am

Sundar and Ashwin starting beautifully today. 41 added in ten overs and not unduly troubled ( yet )by the new ball .

Any follow on speculation will be off the table soon if this keeps up :)

Lot to like about Washington Sundar : question going forward will be whether his bowling is good enough to keep him in a spot - because his batting so far in two Test Matches has been excellent.

298/6
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Re: England tour of India

Postby alfie » Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:07 am

So India's hour , that. Late wicket of Ashwin - welcome change of luck for Leach - a lift for England. But Sundar is playing very well.
Not sure he can add the 72 more they need to avoid the follow on possibility; but surely England won't be considering that anyway as it is fairly clear their bowlers are already suffering a bit from yesterday's efforts.

I like the Indian batsmen's approach today :thumb
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Re: England tour of India

Postby alfie » Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:24 am

Batting looking a bit harder now... Two wickets for Leach , who appreciates the harder ball today. A lot up to Sundar now .
Funny over from Anderson : beats Washington five times in a row outside off ...then he hits the last ball for six :)

Very watchable game .
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Re: England tour of India

Postby alfie » Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:58 am

Smart bowling from Anderson to wrap up the tail and leave Sundar high and dry on 85. And an excellent catch by Ben Stokes.

England to bat again with a lead of 241. Still about 65 overs left today so they'll hope to get India back in some time this evening with a mountain to climb.

I don't know how those previously arguing for the follow on are going to see this but I'd suggest Jimmy and Jofra are quietly relieved to be getting a bit of a break now. Anyone who thinks bowling even 15-20 overs in this heat doesn't take the edge off you obviously has never been a fast bowler. Unfortunately the break won't be a long one but at least the pitch might be doing a bit more by the time they resume...

Ha. Not the best start for England's second innings : Burns gone first ball to Ashwin ! Lawrence survives the hat trick ball...

Talk of pushing the hitters up the order a bit premature :)

All spin from India. Nadeem the other end...
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Re: England tour of India

Postby meninblue » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:41 am

Negative approach by England. Should have enforced follow on given they had bowled 95.5 overs in first innings.

Having said that England can still win as they lead by 241 already.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Durhamfootman » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:46 am

India are shouting for every ball

yet don't review

The only wicket I haven't seen is that of ashwin, but bounce looks like the problem for batting.

India are going to be very animated for a while, so it's up to these two to stay calm and quieten them down a bit
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Re: England tour of India

Postby meninblue » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:52 am

I am hoping for that 5 to 6 wickets session by our spinners bowling in tandem. Hopefully it will be second session.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:31 am

Expensive drop of Sundar yesterday.
I always say that everybody's right.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Durhamfootman » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:41 am

Hmm... that kept low, without being a grubber. Pitched on a length, went under Lawrence's bat and would have hit middle stump less than halfway up

300 wickets for Ishant
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Re: England tour of India

Postby alfie » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:43 am

meninblue wrote:Negative approach by England. Should have enforced follow on given they had bowled 95.5 overs in first innings.

Having said that England can still win as they lead by 241 already.


Seriously ? It's only a negative approach if they subsequently fail to declare early enough to have a proper crack at India this evening.
I go back to my earlier figures , which haven't changed much. 155 overs left after the end of India's first innings. If India could bat 120 of them they'd probably be nearly safe. Hardly impossible for this strong batting unit. If England don't get bowled out here (quite possible given they've lost three wickets now !) they can still give India that sort of time to bat and it will surely be harder to do so tomorrow? So what is the difference ?

Of course if they could have skittled India for 120 this afternoon they'd have earned a day off . But I'd give this Indian team a bit more respect than that...

India are fighting back magnificently in any case. Three early wickets ; so England will have to work to try and set up a declaration. But again : if they can't make a rapid 150-180 today , what hope would you give them of chasing even 130 against the clock late tomorrow ?

Batting again was totally logical. And I say that regardless of what happens from here .
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Durhamfootman » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:45 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Expensive drop of Sundar yesterday.

very expensive. He's had a very good start to his test career

India have only bowled a couple of overs of seam

honest Joe taking it to Ashwin
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Re: England tour of India

Postby alfie » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:47 am

Durhamfootman wrote:Hmm... that kept low, without being a grubber. Pitched on a length, went under Lawrence's bat and would have hit middle stump less than halfway up

300 wickets for Ishant



Goes for those stumps , doesn't he , Ishant ? Bowled pretty well in this match , without a lot of reward. Lawrence finding Test Cricket a bit tough since his good first match.

Bit of work left to do for the England middle order. That top three still bothers me a bit despite a successful first innings here.

Lead at 305 now. Will want a few more than that.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Durhamfootman » Mon Feb 08, 2021 8:48 am

alfie wrote:
meninblue wrote:Negative approach by England. Should have enforced follow on given they had bowled 95.5 overs in first innings.

Having said that England can still win as they lead by 241 already.


Seriously ? It's only a negative approach if they subsequently fail to declare early enough to have a proper crack at India this evening.

I suppose 15 overs tonight would give England 25 overs with a second new ball tomorrow. Would England declare earlier than that?
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