England tour of India

[Arthur Crabtree]

I thought the BBC had told Gary Lineker not to express political opinions on social media.

I remember Vaughan endorsing Trump. He was taken aback by how much criticism he got for it.

There's a film saying, no one ever made a dime on a civil war picture. Because inevitably you will alienate half your audience depending on which side you take. That's what Vaughan is doing. It probably won't end well.

[Durhamfootman]

Mo has decided to go home. Having isolated with covid at the start of the tour, it's quite understandable that he might be struggling. Not good timing though having just returned to the squad having elected not to be available.

I've been critical of Mo's England performances for a while now, but I have also rather liked him as a person and still do. In the last 3 years he has not looked to me like a player enjoying anything at all about his England career and I have worried quite a lot about its effect on his mental health, which is why I have, on more than one occasion, suggested that England should move on from him. I believed then and I believe now that Mo would enjoy playing his cricket far more and find much more end of career fulfilment playing for Worcester, doing what he has done for years..... dismantling county bowling attacks and then dismantling county batting lineups.... and going home most evenings too.

He did look like a man enjoying himself this morning, though. A pity he didn't quite manage that possible fastest test fifty record

[Dr Cricket]

Boom best day of cricket I have ever followed , can’t wait to watch the cricket on the sky box recording.

Wander what the pathetic English media, fans and players are saying now.

Absolute morons when India scored 615 runs on the deck lol.
Yet again England being sore losers and pathetic when it comes to spinner decks.

Such childish gloating along with unnecessary defaming of "all" England fans etc does nothing to make this board - or your own reputation - much honour , Dr C. I for one have done nothing but praise the outstanding efforts of India's players in this match , in contrast to the poor performances of most England players. Haven't moaned about the pitch either - despite one line of my earlier perfectly reasonable post about pitches and the difficulties around them being rather ridiculously quoted out of context.
Frankly this sort of rubbish is one of the reasons I post a lot less here lately, have half a mind to read a lot less too.

Grumpy ? Yes. But with silly posting , not the cricket . Congrats to India , again. But I'm off for now...

Tbh the forum actually quite good all types of cricket and pitches are accepted but let’s be honest vast majority of English fans and media are not sane like people on this forum.

[Dr Cricket]

I be honest none of my comments are based on any members on this forum. Just ranting out on English media and the mad hatred people have for turning decks in Asia.

[Alviro Patterson]

Mo has decided to go home. Having isolated with covid at the start of the tour, it's quite understandable that he might be struggling. Not good timing though having just returned to the squad having elected not to be available.

I've been critical of Mo's England performances for a while now, but I have also rather liked him as a person and still do. In the last 3 years he has not looked to me like a player enjoying anything at all about his England career and I have worried quite a lot about its effect on his mental health, which is why I have, on more than one occasion, suggested that England should move on from him. I believed then and I believe now that Mo would enjoy playing his cricket far more and find much more end of career fulfilment playing for Worcester, doing what he has done for years..... dismantling county bowling attacks and then dismantling county batting lineups.... and going home most evenings too.

He did look like a man enjoying himself this morning, though. A pirightlty he didn't quite manage that possible fastest test fifty record

The bits and pieces role is bound to catch up with Moeen at some stage. He is far better bat than at 8 but not consistent as a frontline bowler, just doesn't have the control and bowled a number of full tosses. Dom Bess should feel aggrieved for the reasons he got dropped, I hope he gets recalled in the 3rd test.

[Dr Cricket]

Also the ironic thing is Vaughan not even the guy that comes on my nerves.
India could probably pay him 10 pounds and he will change his tune.
He a click bait and he comments were because England were losing.
He did after all say he wanted rank turners in India because they are so fun to watch as a neutral.

nah it bumble, Agnew the older folks that piss me off.
usually the ones bitter about the way cricket changed so much in the last 25-30 yrs.

Also you got to remember every English pundit went crazy for the pitch just after 4-5 overs.


Vaughan a fraud though really would never take his comments seriously don’t actually mind him though since he does watch way more neutral games and seems to enjoy all kinds of cricket unlike other people cough Agnew and bumble.

[bigfluffylemon]

Some good comments here, on the reasons for the turnaround (sp and Red especially) - although I note one other factor was the ridiculous number of catches England dropped and other missed chances. However well he played, Rohit got some let-offs.

Also good comments on Mo from DFM and AP. I've never been a fan of having him in the side as a bits-and-pieces player or frontline spinner. He can be a good cricketer, but he's never quite been able to fit into the side with Stokes as a better allrounder, and he's not a good enough a bowler to be a frontline spinner. And working on his bowling has cost his batting. For years I've thought England are weaker when he's in the red ball side. The stats bear this out - England's W/L record since 2017 is 2.33 without Moeen, but 1.05 with him, on a similar sample size (20 v 23 matches).
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... ;type=team
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engin ... ;type=team

And as for Vaughan, geez he's getting more and more annoying. No doubt he has some good insight into what goes on on the field (it's what made him a good captain), but these days it's dressed up in such opinionated drivel. I'm sure he's saying some of it just to get attention (and I guess it works), but he is starting to remind me of Boycott and the way he used to criticise every decision, the opposition wickets, etc. I always wanted to write in and say 'if managing England's so easy, why don't you do it rather than sitting on your a*** pontificating about how obvious all their mistakes are?'

[sussexpob]

Interesting (and pretty damning) stats there BFL. Some might argue that the opposition strength in those losses are much higher with Moeen around, but then again he did average over 100 a wicket in 5 Ashes matches in Australia last time out, so he also has to take a massive part of the blame as to why the bowlers never got into the Aussies at any stage. I have made passionate defences of Moeen's pretty unique match winning ability on both sides of the ball in the limited overs game, but in tests its much harder to do that.

Comparisons to Stokes are unfair, mostly because they show Moeen has got the rough end of the stick when it comes to finding a role in the batting line up. If Stokes was not there, Moeen would almost certainly have batted in slots more suited to producing realistic performance metrics. Approximately half of Moeens batting has come at 8 or below, at this point batting averages can be binned because you cannot build innings or make high scores, 20-30s become valuable when all else around you crumbles. I practical measure of this is Moeen's SR at 9 is 117, showing you that when batting that low, he's pretty much reduced to suicide watch.

Stokes for instance has scored ducks in every single test he's batted below 7 (6 tests) save for one innings of 12. It would appear when comparisons on batting position opportunities are taken between the two, they are quite similar. Both do pretty well in batting slots that suits them, for instance Moeen matches Stokes career average of 37 in the matches he is at 7 in the order, the prime position for someone bowling so many overs as he does (I am sure Stokes very rarely bowls the overs Moeen does, especially on spinning decks). And h's never really held that position consistently. If Moeen had 6 or 7 slot held down for series on end, you might see his performance improve.

They both have scant returns up the order in the 1-4 slots. But then you wouldnt expect either to do that well, especially Moeen who often has been elevated randomly in certain matches, especially in Asian conditions. Moeen's arguable best ever series in India last time out, where he scored 2 x 100 in his prime slot, meant he got elevated to 4 in Mohali, but the key is he was still a front line bowler. You cant expect a bowling all rounder to turn his arm for 70 overs in a game, then come in with a shaky top order early and make 100s. I cant think of many all rounders who made strong bats up the order while being a front line bowler. They either bat low at 6-7 (Flintoff) or they bat 3-4 and are the clear 5th bowler (Kallis).

[sussexpob]

Generally, I find it hard to criticize Moeen. He was never a frontline bowler, but a batsman who could occasionally turn his arm. He stepped up at a time England had no alternatives, and has been defined pretty much on his secondary skill set, which in fairness to him, he has managed to do very well at considering his FC average is higher than his test wicket average. If England had seen him as what he was, a batting allrounder who could be a secondary spinner to add a bit of depth, his batting record would no doubt be more reflective of his ability and his bowling would have been useful to turn to.

So I think in many ways he should get more respect for sacrificing himself for the good of the team needs. I dont personally find its that fair to rate his bowling as a front line spinner, I doubt he can help it the selectors have misjudged him for many years. And echoing the above, now England have someone like Bess who can do the role better with the ball and still add batting depth at 8, the role should pass down to him.

Reminds me a lot of Shane Watson and the criticism he got from Australia's when he volunteered to step up to the opener slots (around 2009 Ashes time). Australia had no other opener options, so they had to turn to someone after many retirements and failures. And Watson did pretty well, but consistently got attacked for making starts or having technical problems to the new ball.

Like Moeen, he could have carved a nice little career being a pretty excellent 5th bowler option (the elevation up the order lost Australia his bowling largely, when fit I thought Watson was a top class seamer) and averaging in the 30s down the order being incredibly useful. But he stepped up for the team, and ended up being poleaxed for not doing enough.

Its a cruel game I guess. Watson retired with an average 1 run less than Stokes (although he averaged 40 odd in the top 3 slots in a lot of tests) and 1 run more with the ball (which I think would have been far less had his body held up to the demand of batting full time at the top and bowling)..... and yet, think of the difference in legacies.

[sussexpob]

Dom Bess should feel aggrieved for the reasons he got dropped, I hope he gets recalled in the 3rd test.

I didnt agree with the selection decision to begin with, but the selection itself can be justified on some level. The real issue I had with this was the accompanying defence of dropping Bess from Root, which seemed to be attempting to justify the decision by making out there was a problem with Bess' capacity at test level. I wouldnt think such comments do the player any good, and when the selection change always come with a risk that Moeen would do badly and Bess would end up coming back (which Id guess is going to happen), you are then one test later picking a guy you just said isnt good enough and needs to go away and learn/work on his game. If Bess gets smashed around or bowls with little confidence, he can thank his captain.

Root could have easily said Bess has got through 4 test matches and needs a bit of a rest. Even if it wasnt true, if Moeen then comes in and does better, you keep Bess out and dont have to have told everyonee you think hes rubbish. And if Moeen didnt do well, he was always coming back anyway.

Seemed bad management from Root and the back room staff.

[Arthur Crabtree]

My impression was that Mo was a better bowler (and probably batter) at the start than England made of him. There was a bit of a cult around getting him to bowl ever faster when he got into the side, and it lost him that great natural drift and loop that he had.

If there is a temptation to draw a line under his career because of his present difficulties, then that would be wrong. If he is moved on because he is becoming less effective, then fair enough. I was a bit surprised he was brought back in Tests.

[sussexpob]

Seemed bad management from Root and the back room staff.

And now Silverwood has come out to say that the team management decided to send Moeen home, inferring that the player maybe wanted to stay and play on (he says the player's opinion was sought, but the team management decided to send him home anyway, which says to me Moeen did not want to leave), and that it is part of a plan to rest all three format players at some point from the biobubble. He has played one test in 18 months, so quite why he needed to be rested is an aside point, but once again the team have chosen quite a bungled way to transmit their desired plans to the outside world.

I guess everyone might have different opinions, but I am not quite sure how Root could say three times Moeen had asked to leave and mean anything but that. His words seem pretty clear, and were repeated. Its now being sold as an error of wording, but I am not buying that. I have a feeling maybe some form of confidentiality breach was made in the announcement and is now being sold as something else. I cant think of another reason why they are trying to re-write what Root says, and as I said, I dont buy any of this nonsense that he didnt mean what he said.

Reminds me of an episode of the Thick of it where the MP accidentally uncovers a truth, and gets Malcolm Tucker hairdryer treatment before being told "Now go back and tell them what you really meant"....

Bit of a mess. England's management need to start being a bit more savvy with what they are telling the press, because at the moment it has potential to cause lasting issues with certain players or situations.

[Durhamfootman]

My impression was that Mo was a better bowler (and probably batter) at the start than England made of him. There was a bit of a cult around getting him to bowl ever faster when he got into the side, and it lost him that great natural drift and loop that he had.

this comment was made in the last test. Much was made over the speed of delivery from Ashwin compared to the England boys, but I rather think that was a red herring... I think it was Ashwin's variation in pace that caused the difficulty and that's just good bowling from a top spin bowler. Constantly changing from over to round and back to over the wicket was a big factor too. There was one over to Stokes when Ashwin changed the side of the wicket he was bowling from virtually every delivery. Surely that has to be something the England bowlers can take away from the second test and try and work on for the future, because Ashwin used it to devastating effect

[Durhamfootman]

Seemed bad management from Root and the back room staff.

And now Silverwood has come out to say that the team management decided to send Moeen home, inferring that the player maybe wanted to stay and play on (he says the player's opinion was sought, but the team management decided to send him home anyway, which says to me Moeen did not want to leave), and that it is part of a plan to rest all three format players at some point from the biobubble. He has played one test in 18 months, so quite why he needed to be rested is an aside point, but once again the team have chosen quite a bungled way to transmit their desired plans to the outside world.

I rather got the impression that it was planned for Mo to return home for tests 3 and 4 and they asked him to stay on during day 4 of the 2nd test which he didn't want to do (is he coming back for the T20's later?).... but yes, it's such a garbled message it's hard to be sure.

I also think that the England management have tried very hard to manage the players workload and well-being as best they can in such difficult times, and not without a fair degree of success, so I'm prepared to forgive them if the message sometimes gets lost a little bit along the way

[Arthur Crabtree]

Spinners are going to bowl faster on more helpful pitches, so they need to be adaptable, but Mo just got told all the time to bowl faster by a compliant press. It was about the time when Moores was in charge, and Flower was a kind of malevolent, shadowy Dr Mabuse type figure in the background. Reporters like Selvey and Pringle would bang away at it all the time.