England tour of India

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Re: England tour of India

Postby Alviro Patterson » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:02 am

sussexpob wrote:
sussexpob wrote:Seemed bad management from Root and the back room staff.


And now Silverwood has come out to say that the team management decided to send Moeen home, inferring that the player maybe wanted to stay and play on (he says the player's opinion was sought, but the team management decided to send him home anyway, which says to me Moeen did not want to leave), and that it is part of a plan to rest all three format players at some point .


Disastrous PR by the ECB. Surely one of Ashley Giles or Ed Smith should be fronting the media on selection matters, let Root and Silverwood concentrate on their respective roles.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby bigfluffylemon » Thu Feb 18, 2021 3:39 am

All good points SP, but I think that backs up what I was saying - Mo is (or was) a good cricketer, but his particular skill set just hasn't quite fit into an England side that already has a strong contender for what he'd probably have been best suited to (batting allrounder who can bat somewhere between 4-6 and turns his arm over mainly as a 5th bowler).

I think he could justifiably feel aggrieved that he hasn't been managed well, but it seems to me that as a test side England are weaker when they try to shoehorn Moeen in where he doesn't fit than when they just play more specialists. And it's unfortunately got to the point where his returns aren't good enough to justify a top order batting spot (maybe they could have been if England had managed him better after the last India series, but they didn't).

I think it would be better for all concerned if he focussed his international career on the white-ball game, where he should still be able to make an impact, and go back to being a batting allrounder for Worcs in the long form. I think the damage is done, sadly.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby sussexpob » Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:18 pm

bigfluffylemon wrote:All good points SP, but I think that backs up what I was saying - Mo is (or was) a good cricketer, but his particular skill set just hasn't quite fit into an England side that already has a strong contender for what he'd probably have been best suited to (batting allrounder who can bat somewhere between 4-6 and turns his arm over mainly as a 5th bowler)


I think around 2012 at the point Panesar started to decline and have his problems, Flower clearly wanted to make up for the lack of spin quality around by investigating filling the 6 slot England had problems with, with a batting allrounder who could also back up Swann on tours in Asia. Samit, Borthwick and Moeen all got call ups, the former two getting picked under Flower, so it was a clear strategic policy to embed someone like that in the team. Swann's sudden retirement mid-series, and the dirth of replacement quality (Panesar was done, Kerrigan had a horror debut and fell away, Rashid's county form plummeted, Mason Crane never developed, Tredwells county form nosedived at the wrong time) meant Moeen had to come in and get a shot.

After that disaster tour, Moeen was the next cab off the rack, and rather than be the Swann backup was thrust into being England''s main spin option. And it was a role he did better than anyone until Leach came around, a player who was often criticised and held back because of a perceived attitude problem and deemed unfit for test cricket for a long time. So I think its harsh to say his skill set didnt suit England, his spinning ability was the best England could conjure up for about 5 years, and for that reason he fit into the team nicely; if anything the opposite is true, that the role that benefited the team did not benefit the player, because Moeen was never going to justify his batting ability so often left to bat with the tail and having to waste innings hitting out or not having time to build innings.

Its a minute point in the grand scheme of things, because you can only judge what has been and gone; and now we are in the position to say we know Moeen's batting ability is seriously truncated in the number 8 slot, meaning the difference between him and Bess' ability with the bat doesnt overturn the difference with the ball. So we reach the same conclusion BFL, Stokes + the two spin specialists are the way to go.

But I think its still fair and important to say Moeen never got an opportunity to reach his full potential. His record batting at 7 is very good when taken alongside his bowling uses over his career, so for me its important to acknowledge his career performances maybe dont come close to judging him. And that the sacrifices he made for the good of his team is something that should be respected.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby sussexpob » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:27 pm

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Spinners are going to bowl faster on more helpful pitches, so they need to be adaptable, but Mo just got told all the time to bowl faster by a compliant press. It was about the time when Moores was in charge, and Flower was a kind of malevolent, shadowy Dr Mabuse type figure in the background. Reporters like Selvey and Pringle would bang away at it all the time.


Flower wanted to promote his own player pathway as the only way to develop players, so those people who developed outside of the system also had to graduate the Flower School before getting opportunities, and those players who came through Flower's system were given a bias towards being moved on for opportunities. Being successful in county cricket meant very little to Flower unless said player did so under his guidance. Players that came through over pathways routinely got blasted as having inadequacies when they arrived in the Lions.

One only has to compare someone like Ansari, who Flower spoke highly of and who's academic success off the field ticked so many of Flower's pathway boxes, to that of Leach, who was ripping up county cricket but had developed under Somerset's partnership with the Lehmann Academy and aide from the ECB systems. One day with Flower and he was told he was a chucker, had an attitude problem, and wasn't mature enough to play test cricket, much to the shock of everyone who worked with him. This sort of thing was routine, seeing players do better outside Flower's nonsense system rocked his ego and proved the science behind it wrong, so he was happy to wreck players careers to protect his own work.

Moeen is another example of this. I think its well known that Shakib-Al-Hasan saw his talent and got him to BD to work on his game there when he was younger, and Ajmal also is said to have noted his ability and taught him how to spin the ball and work on his doosra. Moeen was consistently ignored by Flower, when he won the 2013 MVP in county cricket he got no call up to the even the Lions team, let alone the winter Ashes squad. I think its fair to say Flower didnt rate him, or at least wouldnt until he came into his system and proved himself on Flower's own metrics.

It seems no co-incidence that Moeen was first picked in an England squad literally within the same week Flower left his role as coach, and that he debuted in the subsequent gap between Flower getting the development job. And then he scored a 100 in his second game and bowled better than expected, Flower's influence in not fancying him might have been overrided.

Still, because he didnt graduate Flower School, Flower would no doubt have a lot to say on what he needed to do to improve. He really didint like to see players he didnt work with a lot go on and look good.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby sussexpob » Thu Feb 18, 2021 5:54 pm

Durhamfootman wrote:I also think that the England management have tried very hard to manage the players workload and well-being as best they can in such difficult times, and not without a fair degree of success, so I'm prepared to forgive them if the message sometimes gets lost a little bit along the way


If the ECB or player were concerned about workloads then why did he just sign for an IPL team this afternoon and voluntarily subject himself to 2 months extra work in quarantine conditions?

Any player being rested for England duty but playing in the IPL should have their central contract terminated. I have no problem with players going to the IPL, but if they cant meet their obligations with England, then they need to be resting in IPL time, not in England tours time.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Durhamfootman » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:07 pm

normally I would agree with you, SP (when players were talking about bubble fatigue at the end of the England home series, I said at the time that I'd have more sympathy for them if they didn't all then immediately head off to play for mega bucks in the delayed IPL), but this time England have one eye on the WT20 and I imagine the IPL is seen as good ground for England players to compete with and against the other top international players that they will have to overcome later in the year, not least the India players who they don't get to see anywhere else..... which is fair enough, I think
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Re: England tour of India

Postby sussexpob » Fri Feb 19, 2021 10:48 am

Durhamfootman wrote:normally I would agree with you, SP (when players were talking about bubble fatigue at the end of the England home series, I said at the time that I'd have more sympathy for them if they didn't all then immediately head off to play for mega bucks in the delayed IPL), but this time England have one eye on the WT20 and I imagine the IPL is seen as good ground for England players to compete with and against the other top international players that they will have to overcome later in the year, not least the India players who they don't get to see anywhere else..... which is fair enough, I think


England were 1-0 in India and have a chance at the World Test championship when the players started to leave, so one has to ask what the priority is? There have been strong hints (and outright statement, depending on where you look) in the press that England have given the IPL players the NZ series off in May, should their franchises get that far. And that would also mean missing the Final if England qualified. So we are jeopardizing the test team in back to back series vs the Number 1 ranked team and the hardest away series possible, and the test championship, with an away Ashes on the horizon too, to facilitate the players going to play the IPL.

Its not imo the job of the England national team management to make sure the players are in the position to fulfill IPL schedules when the national team suffers as a result. As I said, allow all players to do what they want in their own time, but if any player is not available for an England game they are selected for, then they should pay a penalty.

And while the WT20 might sound like a compelling reason, if England wanted to jeopardize the national team performance by preparing for that, one would ask why the hundred is scheduled to start in the middle of the T20 series in the summer, with the only gap between that and the India series starting falling at a time where one would imagine players would be required to be starting their time in the biobubble in prep for that series.

England would have no doubt been better positioned to have slot the 100 into a time where their best players can take part, and considering this is a flagship contest that needs to make them a lot of money, it made commercial sense for the best to be available. But they didnt, so not sure we can even argue they are thinking about WT20 if players wont even be playing in the best competition available directly before. And with India travelling to the UK for the summer, you might have gotten a few big hitters taking short term deals to play in the 100 too, boosting its commercial viability.

Obviously that would make too much sense for the ECB, so we can write it off straight away
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Durhamfootman » Fri Feb 19, 2021 5:45 pm

sussexpob wrote:Obviously that would make too much sense for the ECB, so we can write it off straight away

not big on common sense are the ECB

I can't see India players being allowed to play in the Silly, just as they aren't allowed to play in anything else

As far as England are concerned they appear to have 2 priorities for this year and neither of them involve winning the inaugural test championship, so I don't think they've factored it into their thinking. They want to win the WT20 and reclaim the ashes, so all decisions along the way are seen through the prism of those 2 goals, I think
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Re: England tour of India

Postby bigfluffylemon » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:28 pm

Does a huge disrespect to India and NZ if that's the thinking.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Durhamfootman » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:15 am

Is it, fluffy? England can't prioritise everything or they won't have prioritised anything and I doubt that they thought they had much chance of making the test final.... they've been a long way behind for most of this new comp and still are, in truth, and the chances of beating India on their home patch were pretty unlikely and still are. Besides, pretty much the whole of English cricket is seen through the prism of the ashes anyway, and they always target (usually more in hope than expectation) every major trophy that comes along, so it's pretty much business as usual, but with bubbles and mental health to consider for the first time. We should probably be pleased that they are finally thinking about player welfare...... we might see fewer players walking away mid tour
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Durhamfootman » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:18 am

of course that is only true if rotation is handled well.... not like the Moeen situation which could have been handled better.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby sussexpob » Sat Feb 20, 2021 9:11 am

Just to add to that DFM, New Zealand have confirmed their IPL players will not be coming to England, so both teams will potentially be under strength.

Cricinfo says that the IPLs own playing availability conditions says any England player not playing regularly in the line up and picked for the NZ series should be released. Which seems to indicate players who are playing regularly won't be.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Durhamfootman » Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:57 pm

For me, the whole idea of a test championship is a bit of a non-comp. It seems fundamentally flawed anyway, as has been discussed before. Perhaps the test playing nations themselves, or at least some of them, are yet to embrace it as a competition. It does seem to be a bit contrived as it stands. That's not to say that they shouldn't try to work out a decent format and it may well be that over time it evolves into something that better reflects the challenges of test cricket, but it isn't there yet, imo.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby Alviro Patterson » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:29 pm

Are England really going to be under strength against New Zealand in the absence of IPL bound players? Stokes is going to be the most notable absentee, but England have that element of depth in test cricket. Sibley, Burns, Crawley, Lawrence and Pope are going to be the foundations of England's batting and want to be bedded in ahead of the Ashes tour.

Sibley, Burns, Crawley, Root, Pope, Foakes, Bess, Wood, Broad, Anderson. Could do with identifying a genuine or batting all-rounder who can play at 6 or 7 in County Cricket.

There's just too much cricket going on in the next two years, this 12 months alone there are two marquee overseas tours and an ICC event. Reaching the World Test Championship Final would be an iconic achievement, but if there is one competition I want to see England win the most it is the Twenty20 World Cup. Not only our team is World Class, but contains all time greats too.
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Re: England tour of India

Postby sussexpob » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:36 pm

Did wood not get a deal in the end, AP? I guess considering the amount of caps unavailable potentially, it's still a functioning team as you put above.

Obviously with NZ missing their best players too, England might not need a great team out.
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