The associate's thread

[meninblue]

Let them play 4 day games with A sides of other countries. Analyze their performances against winning domestic teams top sides of every country like England Lions, Mumbai Ranji team (39 trophy wins so far), Indian Board President X!, Tasmania (Sheffield Sheild winner) etc.... In such games just see how they are doing before coming to a conclusion whether they can sustain half of the duration of test matches. If they are impressive then yes, they can be given tests against international teams. Just don't throw them into test category because they played well amongst associates. Check whether they have enough quality to play 4 day games against major teams of ever country. Giving them test status because they can play 50 overs is not a good idea.

[ChrisQ]

Many years ago there was an East African cricket team. It's first game was in 1958 around the time when the East African colony (Kenya), protectorates (Uganda, Zanzibar) and mandate (Tanganyika) were moving towards ever closer union with the ultimate aim of forming an East African federation in the 1960s. That movement floundered before any federation even formed but the East African team lasted as the team representative of Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania (the traditional "East Africa") until 1981 when Kenya joined the ICC separately. Zambia joined the East African setup in 1986 and Malawi joined sometime in the late 1980s after which "East Africa" came to an end and was renamed as "East and Central Africa" in 1989. East and Central Africa lasted until 2003 when all four members joined the ICC separately. With the revival of the East African Community in 1999 (after the first one fell apart in 1977 after 10 years), the now five members of that Community (Kenya, Tanzania, Uganda, Rwanda and Burundi) have a stated aim of forming an East African Federation around 2015.

At some point I have always expected that this move towards a federation would be accompanied by (or at least followed by) moves towards unity in the non-political spheres of life. Now comes the news that Kenya is to launch new domestic competitions (only 50-overs and 20-overs unfortunately) and that 2 Ugandan sides will take part. I suspect that this will be the first step towards a region-wide East African tournament involving Kenya, Uganda, Tanzania and Rwanda (Burundi doesn't play cricket as far as I know) and the eventual reunification of the East African team:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/kenya/conte ... 13594.html

Kenya unveil ambitious new domestic structure
Martin Williamson
May 3, 2011
Comments: 12 | Text size: A | A
Cricket Kenya has announced new 20 and 50-over domestic competitions aimed at bolstering the standard of cricket in the country. The inclusion of two Ugandan sides in the six-team set-up will also provide a valuable boost to their up-and-coming neighbours.

The gulf between the NPCA league, Kenya's premier competition, and the national side has been a worry for a long time. In 2009 an attempt was made to establish a four-team elite event in both three-day and limited-over formats, but it floundered because of a lack of finance and poor support from players.

The latest initiative will feature four Kenyan sides - two from Nairobi, one each from Coast and Rift Valley - as well as two Ugandan teams. Each side will play ten games over weekends, with a Twenty20 match on a Saturday followed a day later by a 50-over contest. The leading four teams in each event would then progress to play-offs and a final.

Nationally contracted players will be split between sides to ensure a fair balance between the competitors, and Tom Sears, Cricket Kenya's chief executive, told ESPNcricinfo there were also plans to bring in overseas players from the subcontinent. "I believe by bringing in players from abroad we have the best chance of our players improving their game," he said.

Original plans had been for all six sides to come from within Kenya, but Sears admitted that "the level of competition was such that we could not offer enough strength in depth to provide strong enough cricket". He added that as Africa's leading Associate, it was Kenya's responsibility to help the progress of Uganda. "They have good players," he said. "That's why we opted to give them a chance to take part."

It was also revealed that a media deal had been agreed with Supersport for them to cover the semi-finals and finals of each competition.

Martin Williamson is executive editor of ESPNcricinfo and managing editor of ESPN Digital Media in Europe, the Middle East and Africa

Feeds: Martin Williamson

[ChrisQ]

The next intercontinental cup sees the return to an 8 team format, the scrapping of the intercontinental shield after Bermuda did so poorly (in the very competition they gave the ICC the idea for) and the exit of the Zimbabwe XI. The teams for the next Intercontinental Cup will be:

Afghanistan, Canada, Ireland, Kenya, Nambia, the Netherlands, Scotland and the UAE.


There will also be a new 50-overs league to go with it (which is why I suppose it now lasts an extra year). See: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/cont ... 15596.html for more


Even before 2013 comes round though I expect this to be the final standings unless the teams in question do something remarkable (either to improve or make themselves worse) over the coming two years:

First and second: Afghanistan and Namibia (either one could take the title I think. Afghanistan probably have the edge especially since that multi-day tournament in Peshawar will expose more Afghan players to multi-innings cricket)
Third: Scotland (outside chance of the title, especially if Namibia is rusty having only played 3 Shield matches last time instead of the six Cup matches - if Scotland institutes multi-day cricket as they planned I expect they will do really well)
Fourth: Ireland
Fifth: Kenya
Sixth: Netherlands
Seventh and Eighth: Canada and the UAE (either one could slot into either spot)

[mikesiva]

I really hope Afghanistan do well in this two-year cycle....

They seem to have a support base, which is so important for the success of cricket in the country.

[mikesiva]

It would be ideal if East Africa could provide a unified team along the lines of the West Indies....

But realistically, I can't see that happening, simply because cricket courses through the blood of English-speaking Caribbean people, while in East Africa it does not. Only a small segment of the population in any of the East African countries show any interest in cricket, which is treated like a novelty there. A unified team would take a level of organisation and cooperation between the countries that I think would be beyond their will and capabilities.

[ChrisQ]

It would be ideal if East Africa could provide a unified team along the lines of the West Indies....

But realistically, I can't see that happening, simply because cricket courses through the blood of English-speaking Caribbean people, while in East Africa it does not. Only a small segment of the population in any of the East African countries show any interest in cricket, which is treated like a novelty there. A unified team would take a level of organisation and cooperation between the countries that I think would be beyond their will and capabilities.

I really don't see how organizing a unified cricket team is beyond them. After all they are aiming at unifying their very nations, so why would it be harder to unify a sports team?

[mikesiva]

Petty politics, and that unity would result in the loss of the administrators' minor fiefdoms. Plus, the fact that cricket is such a minor sport over there, that the overall sporting bodies in those countries probably just don't care about unity....

In the Caribbean, cricket is one of the region's top sports, alongside athletics and football.

[mikesiva]

Well, Afghanistan played three one-dayers against Pakistan A, and lost them all....

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/ ... 15687.html

But it's still good news that they're playing these matches, and they can only get better if this continues.

[ChrisQ]

Read this article and thought how amazing it was that replacing "Kenya" with "West Indies" and replacing some player names would give a good outline of what has been happening in WI, however the coverage and response has been different. For Kenya, cricinfo and most fans it seems are in favour but for WI cricinfo's coverage has been far more sensationalists and a lot of fans come out swinging for the "best players" of the WI. The ultimate low is when fans totally ignore Shiv (the only player on the WI team in recent time to have been officially ranked as the Number 1 batsman) and call Gayle "the best batsman" for WI!

http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/co ... 21693.html

[mikesiva]

That's probably because Gayle's stats are still better than any current opener for the West Indies....

In contrast, the four Kenyan veterans left out have little to say for themselves.

1) Jimmy Kamande (32 yo) - 86 ODIs, batting ave 17, bowling ave 45

2) Peter Ongondo (34 yo) - 79 ODIs, batting ave 9, bowling ave 30

3) Thomas Odoyo (33 yo) - 134 ODIs, batting ave 24, bowling ave 30

4) Maurice Ouma (28 yo) - 72 ODIs, batting ave 20

However, that said, Kenyan cricket does seem to be on the slide to oblivion, so this action will probably hasten it. Aside from Seren Waters, there doesn't seem to be much talent in the country, and I doubt we'll ever see Kenya mounting a challenge like they did in the World Cups in India/Sri Lanka and Africa a decade ago. Rather, I suspect their place will be taken by other Associate teams, since hardly anybody is interested in cricket in that east African country....

[Chris de Burgh]

Maybe turning to younger players will slow the slide. Agreed Kenya have been sliding downhill from their peak a decade ago but if their youngsters can arrest the slide it could be the building blocks to progress. Maybe that's just the optimist in me speaking.

[ChrisQ]

That's probably because Gayle's stats are still better than any current opener for the West Indies....

In contrast, the four Kenyan veterans left out have little to say for themselves.

1) Jimmy Kamande (32 yo) - 86 ODIs, batting ave 17, bowling ave 45

2) Peter Ongondo (34 yo) - 79 ODIs, batting ave 9, bowling ave 30

3) Thomas Odoyo (33 yo) - 134 ODIs, batting ave 24, bowling ave 30

4) Maurice Ouma (28 yo) - 72 ODIs, batting ave 20

If that is the basis for the highly erroneous claims to Gayle being the "best batsman" for West Indies then it means a lot of commentators and fans either don't know what they are talking about or don't know English (or maybe both). Gayle may have the best Test stats of any current opener for the WI, but the term batsman does not exclusively mean "opener" and I've heard several times persons on radio and television referring to Gayle as West Indies' best "batsman" (not even "opening batsman", just "batsman"). This is an incredible disrespect to Chanderpaul (Test average: 49 with 23 centuries and 55 half centuries) who is by far the best batsman on the WI team. Really Gayle hardly holds a candle with his 41 average (which lower than most of the other renowned players he is usually compared to by over-exuberant fans such as Chanderpaul, Kevin Pietersen, Dravid, Strauss, Graeme Smith, Sehwag and Sangakkara (and yes I've heard these names being mentioned in the same breath as Gayle's)).

I'm also pretty sure that Gayle's current hold on the best Test stats of any current WI opener has a lot to do with very few others being given proper runs. Off the top of my head I can think of Sewnarine Chattergoon (average 18 after getting only 4 matches), Dale Richards (average: 20 after getting only 3 matches), Travis Dowlin (average: 31) and Omar Phillips (average: 40) who were not given half decent chances at the test level. Two (Chattas and Richards) get injured and never get back into the squad; Dowlin (6 test matches with an average of 31) got dropped when his performances dipped and wasn't persisted with despite his previous consistency which showed he had the right attitude and would probably have bounced back and Phillips makes a 94 in his first innings but then never plays again after 2 matches (Gayle made an 81 in his 5 match and innings and didn't score anything over 90 until his 16th innings).

However, that said, Kenyan cricket does seem to be on the slide to oblivion, so this action will probably hasten it.

How so? Non-performing players who strike at the drop of a hat are not going to take any side out of any slide to oblivion. Dropping the deadwood is practically the only sane option.

Aside from Seren Waters, there doesn't seem to be much talent in the country,

Well it would be pretty hard to know for sure if the top non-performers maintain a monopoly on selection for the Kenya team and for local teams, no? If these 4 players are always selected for Kenya then that is 4 spots out of 11 that will not feature any new talent whatsoever. It would be like when Darren Powell was always being selected for the WI and for Jamaica. One would never know that there were decent bowlers left in the WI when Darren Powell was always being selected to give away free runs to the opposing team. Only instead of one Darren Powell there were 4 of him.

and I doubt we'll ever see Kenya mounting a challenge like they did in the World Cups in India/Sri Lanka and Africa a decade ago. Rather, I suspect their place will be taken by other Associate teams, since hardly anybody is interested in cricket in that east African country....

I doubt Kenya will be a separate team in the future anyway. That new Kenyan domestic cricket competition is due to feature two Ugandan teams (a sign of things to come?) and I'm fairly confident that around 2015 (maybe 2017) we will have an East African federation and a renewed East African team composed of the former Kenyan, Tanzanian, Ugandan and Rwandan teams. With Rwanda having a growing interest in cricket and Uganda and Tanzania showing sustained growth even if Kenya regresses, the eventual East African side should be competitive and should have a lot of competition for spaces (which might even give Kenya's cricketers the kick in the behind they need to lift their game).

[mikesiva]

Is this thread about Kenyan cricket or Chris Gayle?

Briefly, you won't get any argument on this board about Shiv being a greater Test player than Gayle - I think most folks here share that view. But it's a bit pointless comparing Gayle to the likes of Graeme Smith, Sehwag, etc, because those guys are not available for West Indies selection. The sad truth is that Gayle's Test average of 41 is still better than anything the current batch of openers have to offer. This season, Chattergoon and Dowlin played for Guyana and Dale Richards for Barbados, and their returns were so poor that there's no way they could be considered for a recall to the WI side. Phillips has done nothing for the CCC to merit a recall to the WIndies side, either, but youth is on his side, so maybe he can improve in the future. Let's look ahead of this autumn's tour of Bangladesh and India - with Gayle clearly unavailable, who would you pick as the two openers to accompany Barath?

As for Kenya, hardly anybody is interested in cricket there. My son's good friend who went to school with him in Montego Bay now lives in Nairobi, and he says only a handful of Asians in his school are interested in the sport. With that limited and declining interest, there is even less talent to draw on, which is why Kenya's performances have declined in recent times. Add to that bitter disputes that remind us of other boards, and Kenyan cricket may just have dealt itself a mortal blow. Will we see Kenya making it to the next World Cup in 2015? Somehow, I doubt it, and even if they do, I really doubt that they will get anywhere close to their achievements of 1996 and 2003. IMHO, that ship has already sailed, and the bright hopes of Associate cricket is now teams like Ireland, Holland, Afghanistan and probably Canada....

[Chris de Burgh]

IMHO, that ship has already sailed, and the bright hopes of Associate cricket is now teams like Ireland, Holland, Afghanistan and probably Canada....

Canada has also had plenty of board issues over the years, add to that the retirement of one of their best players in Davison after the last world cup and things have taken a step backwards. Their youngsters however are showing promise with some good performances so there is some good news on the canadian front.

[ChrisQ]

Is this thread about Kenyan cricket or Chris Gayle?

Briefly, you won't get any argument on this board about Shiv being a greater Test player than Gayle - I think most folks here share that view. But it's a bit pointless comparing Gayle to the likes of Graeme Smith, Sehwag, etc, because those guys are not available for West Indies selection. The sad truth is that Gayle's Test average of 41 is still better than anything the current batch of openers have to offer. This season, Chattergoon and Dowlin played for Guyana

Chattergoon and Dowlin did not play for Guyana this season. They were both dropped even though I know at least Chattergoon made at least a couple of decent knocks in the 2010 first class season where Guyana continued to make low scores and play abysmally as usual in recent times. In Chattergoon's place we saw Chandrika (who had been in the HPC I think) and Ramdeen (whose first names are "Richard Nixon") and later Fudadin.

and Dale Richards for Barbados, and their returns were so poor that there's no way they could be considered for a recall to the WI side.

Quite true, although Dale Richards returns this season were poor but when he was dropped after injury he was coming off 3 consecutive consistent seasons. At the very least I would have put in him in the A team ahead of the Sri Lanka tour.

Phillips has done nothing for the CCC to merit a recall to the WIndies side, either, but youth is on his side, so maybe he can improve in the future.

The question though was what did he do to merit being dropped after scoring 94 in his very first innings in Test cricket? If past openers were being given 10, even 20 matches on a stretch without much returns before really coming into their own, why drop a young fellow who makes good returns on his very first outing?

Let's look ahead of this autumn's tour of Bangladesh and India - with Gayle clearly unavailable, who would you pick as the two openers to accompany Barath?

Chattergoon, Dowlin or Phillips from those previously mentioned except for some strange reason Guyana don't seem to want Chattergoon or Dowlin so they've probably not had the right kind of practice. Based off the most recent first class season I would go with Brathwaite, Kieran Powell or Lendl Simmons. All did well in the first class season and the first two I think would do well with a A team tour to India before to get some practice (and also to help determine which of them would be a better bet for Bangladesh and India). Failing that they could alway put the two century-on-debut batsmen together and have Kirk Edwards open. Then they could play a 5th bowler like so:

Barath
K. Edwards
Darren Bravo/Sarwan
Chanderpaul
Samuels
Baugh Jr +
Sammy *
Rampaul
Edwards/Russell
Bishoo
Roach

As for Kenya, hardly anybody is interested in cricket there. My son's good friend who went to school with him in Montego Bay now lives in Nairobi, and he says only a handful of Asians in his school are interested in the sport.

One swallow does not a summer make.

Certainly there is a problem at that school, but extrapolating what happens in one school (is it in a poor area? a rich area? an area where South Asians are clustered? Was it affected by the election violence which may have driven away a number of students and their families?) to an entire country is bit tenuous isn't it?

With that limited and declining interest, there is even less talent to draw on, which is why Kenya's performances have declined in recent times. Add to that bitter disputes that remind us of other boards, and Kenyan cricket may just have dealt itself a mortal blow. Will we see Kenya making it to the next World Cup in 2015? Somehow, I doubt it, and even if they do, I really doubt that they will get anywhere close to their achievements of 1996 and 2003. IMHO, that ship has already sailed, and the bright hopes of Associate cricket is now teams like Ireland, Holland, Afghanistan and probably Canada....

And as I pointed out before, I doubt "Kenya" will be in the 2015 or 2019 World Cups either. Rather I suspect we will see "East Africa". From what I remember reading last on Rwanda and Uganda they have been experiencing growth in youth participation in cricket, so they will likely help drive any future East African team and force complacent Kenyans to get serious again.

Here is a possible sign of things to come:

http://www.monitor.co.ug/Sports/Rugby/- ... index.html (the revival of the East African Rugby Team which hasn't played since 1982)