Ben Stokes

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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby alfie » Fri May 29, 2015 10:14 am

KipperJohn wrote:Stokes isn't a 'new Botham or Flintoff' - he's an individual in his own right. He's got something about him but to heap all this debate on him is nonsense. Let's see how he develops in the various disciplines - he'll have great days, good days, bad days and terrible days.
Presumably the coaches won't be comparing his stats and such like with past players - they'll simply work with him on his game and how he plays it.

A number of players touted on CMS for a long time are now almost part of the furniture - Ballance, Root,, Stokes, Buttler etc so many posters have got their wish. Let's give them a bit of time and see how they do.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that in a few years time they'll be the 'old guard' with all the baggage of highs and lows that the likes of Cook, Bell, Broad etc now carry!


Excellent post , KJ

But of course , it isn't in the nature of Internet discussion sites - even those frequented by all the wise and reasonable posters on here :) to be patient and refrain from intense debate about a player as he develops ; so your wishes are bound to be ignored ...
And that's without considering the professional media :twisted:

But seriously : I'm not too bothered at the big fuss made over Stokes this week. I'd say it isn't so much a desire to set him up as the New Botham , as it is sheer delight at the sight of a young England player taking on the game with such a refreshingly attacking intent ; it's exciting .
Stokes had a good press in Australia during the Tour from Hell - and rather lost it with injuries , indiscretions and a row of ducks - so to see him back in the side and playing a blinder was always likely to inspire a lot of hype. But I do think the way he played , coming at a time when many of the fans had become disenchanted with the team , is the main factor driving the media enthusiasm. And hopefully there will be recognition that he can't always come off like that - coupled with a desire for him to continue to play with the same freedom of spirit anyway . Even if that means some failures ...after all , if his methods can inspire the rest of the team to play with positive intent , as they seemed to do at Lord's , then he may amount to more than just his own figures as an asset...
Even before this match , I thought there was reason for England supporters to regard this as a potentially exciting time , rather than just a rather unsuccessful one . The number of young players striving to make their way was always going to mean a few ups and downs ; but surely not knowing for certain just what is going to happen next is one of the charms of sport ?
Stokes - and indeed the whole Test Match - lit up Lord's last week. No guarantee the young man can do it again at Headingley , but I do hope that spirit continues to rule the game .
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby Albondiga » Fri May 29, 2015 7:47 pm

sussexpob wrote:
Albondiga wrote:Before there are too many stats -- I would like to make a point. ------ you don't get a hundred and take a five fer in a test match against the Aussies unless you have something about you ---- he has made a great start.


Dwayne Bravo?
Sehwag?
Aamer Sohail?

Some that have done it, not really a list of fine test match allrounders.



Firstly I never lacelled him an allrounder I just said that getting a hundred and taking 5 Fer in a test match against the Aussies meant he had something about him. You made the leap to allrounder.

Secondly you must be in a minority if you would call Sahwag a test allrounder; I would have thought he was a batsman who bowled. Similarly Aamer Sohail although less so.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby m@tt » Sun May 31, 2015 3:37 pm

Averages change quickly when you've only played a few Tests. Stokes averaged 28 with the bat after 9 Tests, now after 10 Tests it is 36.

If Stokes retires with his averages as they are now, he'll be disappointed. In terms of what he should be aiming for, whilst not all all-rounders are comparable, you'd be very happy for an all-rounder to average over 35 with the bat and under 35 with the ball. That may or may not be an appropriate target for Stokes.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby Making_Splinters » Sun May 31, 2015 4:45 pm

An all rounder should have stats such that on an average day he will benefit the team i.e. a batting average higher than his bowling average.

Stokes is still finding his way, he needs to add accuracy to his pace to be a decent bowler at test level.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby meninblue » Thu Oct 15, 2015 8:02 am

On one of the most batsman friendly wicket, he has managed to take 4/57. Dismissed set opener Hafeez on 98, fully set Shoaib on 245, decent wicket keeper batsman Sarfraz and the bowler Zulfi. Well played.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby alfie » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:06 pm

clubcricketeradi wrote:On one of the most batsman friendly wicket, he has managed to take 4/57. Dismissed set opener Hafeez on 98, fully set Shoaib on 245, decent wicket keeper batsman Sarfraz and the bowler Zulfi. Well played.


And backed it up with a very useful innings as well... not to mention some very sharp fielding.

He may still be a work in progress ; but I think he is a game-changer and potentially a very fine all rounder . England would be nuts to leave him out on the grounds of "team structure" just because he has a couple of ordinary matches.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby sussexpob » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:12 pm

clubcricketeradi wrote:On one of the most batsman friendly wicket, he has managed to take 4/57. Dismissed set opener Hafeez on 98, fully set Shoaib on 245, decent wicket keeper batsman Sarfraz and the bowler Zulfi. Well played.


3 wickets came with Pakistan over 500 looking for a declaration, and his innings started at 450 with the player at the other end on 200.....

Pretty meaningless stats
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:34 pm

Often a touch of serendipity about wickets taken like that. But he made some runs, on day four as well, when the pitch must have been deteriorating. So an encouraging game, particularly in the context of the negativity he was attracting in the practice games.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:35 pm

Often enough England have been shredded when the opposition have looked to score declaration runs, so his wickets in he first innings do have some value.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby hopeforthebest » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:48 pm

All the talk of being the new Flintoff or Botham are very wide of the mark. I would compare him to Craig White who played 30 tests in the late 90's.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby sussexpob » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:49 pm

hopeforthebest wrote:All the talk of being the new Flintoff or Botham are very wide of the mark. I would compare him to Craig White who played 30 tests in the late 90's.


Chalky developed a killing reverse swing ball at pace later in his career.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:07 pm

Suspect he'll be a better bat than Craig White, and if he's as good a bowler, then that's fine.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby meninblue » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:49 pm

sussexpob wrote:
clubcricketeradi wrote:On one of the most batsman friendly wicket, he has managed to take 4/57. Dismissed set opener Hafeez on 98, fully set Shoaib on 245, decent wicket keeper batsman Sarfraz and the bowler Zulfi. Well played.


3 wickets came with Pakistan over 500 looking for a declaration, and his innings started at 450 with the player at the other end on 200.....

Pretty meaningless stats


Other bowlers also bowled when Pakistan were over 500 and other batsmen also batted when England were 450.
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby KipperJohn » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:14 pm

Not sure Stokes is the kind of player that benefits from a lot of 'coaching' On his day he can produce something out of nothing with both bat and ball - something out of the ordinary which England have probably lacked under Flower and Moores.

Of course he'll get carted about sometimes and his aggressive batting won't come off that often - but I think he's worth persevering with.

For some reason he gets up my wife's nose - worth a place just for that :)
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Re: Ben Stokes

Postby backfootpunch » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:10 pm

hopeforthebest wrote:All the talk of being the new Flintoff or Botham are very wide of the mark. I would compare him to Craig White who played 30 tests in the late 90's.

im not sure i would compare him to any of those players

he could easily be better than freddie who for other than a three year period in the middle of his career was quite average

but we dont know how much if at all he can get better, at 24 he could easily get a lot better with both bat and ball and he doesnt strike me as the sort of person who will be happy plateauing

i would say his bowling has already developed massively since his debut 18 months ago, if his batting makes similar strides in the next 18 months i see no reason why he couldnt average 40 with the bat and less than 35 with the ball
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