Fifth Test: India v England, 16-20 Dec (Chennai)

[The Professor]

Modding off to Dubai in the week break between Tests Three and Four seems a pretty mod decision for England now.

[budgetmeansbudget]

Leach would have beeen the better option to have been called up, however the selectors got the whole squad wrong in the first place, and were always trying to cover their mistakes which hasn't worked....i would be suprised if Dawson ever played another test

You might be right.

And if he doesn't play for England again in any format then I think I'm right in saying he will have played once in every format.

I'd take that as an average County cricketer!

[hopeforthebest]

Dawson scored more runs and took more wickets at a reasonably economical rate which is better than his record in the CC promised, what more do you want. Apparently some want the untried, unproven Leach, which follows the rule that a player out of the team is always going to do better than the one selected.

I think the consensus was even before the game that Dawson wasn't going to be a good pick, it's got nothing to do with how he has gone in this game. He offered no optimism, even when he was the one out of the side and someone in the side was doing badly.

Then the consensus was proven wrong because his figures make him the most successful bowler bar Broad and the third highest run scorer. If his role in the CC has been principally to bowl dry rather than a wicket taker maybe his county haven't used him as fully as his skill allows. After all Moeen's county record was nothing to write home about when England decided to make him their premier spin bowler. Maybe Dawson has something similar to offer. As for offering no optimism, he wasn't in the squad to offer anything until about two weeks ago. I don't know if he has something to offer the test team in the long term or not but it's not a bad start in this game. Most of his career has been at Hampshire who's pitches have never been great for spin.

[SaintPowelly]

Jake Ball has took what, 2 wickets in a 3 or 4 match career so far.

Must have really impressed on that aptitude test

wanted to say this yesterday but didn't if I was leach I would be more annoyed not getting picked on Emotion/attitude or what ever crap ECB say about him then not being picked for cricketing reason.
I could take not being picked for cricketing reason but it is a kicking in the backside not being picked on other reason especially when the press repeat that dross after Dawson looked ordinary with the ball.
You sense that will be repeated until leach actually plays for england.

Liam Dawson has NEVER been an attacking bowler in FC cricket, hes a holding bowler, and you can argue that he did that well by bowling the most overs at 3po, whilst Ali went at 4.5 and Rashid 5+

yeah he done that job well but not sure he really justified being called up ahead of Leach or better spin options, end of the day dawson been picked to take wickets and look threatening and he not really doing that.
TBH my point was really based on how leach would feel after hearing crap like emotion and other stuff being used to justify dawson being picked ahead of him especially when the media/ECB admit leach is a better bowler and option.

If Leach has any disillusions then that should be aimed at the continued selection of Rashid, who can't control the ball.

Dawson was bought in for 2 reasons:

-to hold up an end (for Rashid to pick up wickets at the other)
- to score lower order runs

Will he play for England again? Maybe not, but he did the job he was bought in to do.

[SaintPowelly]

Dawson scored more runs and took more wickets at a reasonably economical rate which is better than his record in the CC promised, what more do you want. Apparently some want the untried, unproven Leach, which follows the rule that a player out of the team is always going to do better than the one selected.

I think the consensus was even before the game that Dawson wasn't going to be a good pick, it's got nothing to do with how he has gone in this game. He offered no optimism, even when he was the one out of the side and someone in the side was doing badly.

Then the consensus was proven wrong because his figures make him the most successful bowler bar Broad and the third highest run scorer. If his role in the CC has been principally to bowl dry rather than a wicket taker maybe his county haven't used him as fully as his skill allows. After all Moeen's county record was nothing to write home about when England decided to make him their premier spin bowler. Maybe Dawson has something similar to offer. As for offering no optimism, he wasn't in the squad to offer anything until about two weeks ago. I don't know if he has something to offer the test team in the long term or not but it's not a bad start in this game. Most of his career has been at Hampshire who's pitches have never been great for spin.

He has predominately been a 2nd spinner, his debut was made alongside Warne, then he was 2nd to Udal, then Imran Tahir, then Rangara Herath, now Mason Crane has come along.

At the same time, he has batted everywhere in our top 8 and only recently has nailed down a batting position, his bowing has never been the focal point to his game.

[alfie]

awkward part is that nair might not play a test again for india.

I bet he does

[Making_Splinters]

Leach would have beeen the better option to have been called up, however the selectors got the whole squad wrong in the first place, and were always trying to cover their mistakes which hasn't worked....i would be suprised if Dawson ever played another test

I am amazed by how Leach has become the saviour to all of England's spin problems, he's had a decent season and a half behind him, but how many other spinners have we seen have that seemingly break through season and fizzle away to nothing?

If the non selection of Leach is an issue, then that say's everything you need to know about spin bowling in England.

As for Dawson, feel a bit for the lad. He was in a no win situation and did better than most would have expected him to.

[Durhamfootman]

don't know if this has been discussed, but I wonder if England feel like having a crack at winning the toss, batting first, scoring 477 but still finding a way to lose by an innings

[alfie]

Dawson actually surprised me (after reading all the negativity around him on here and elsewhere) because he looked easily the best of England's spinners in this match. OK you can say he bowled mainly defensively - but that was his remit ; and by doing so he forced the batsmen to either be a little patient or take a risk in attacking him - hence why he was struck down the ground several times for sixes but still ended up with a decent economy rate.
Atherton (whose views I generally rate) was going on too much , I thought , about it being wrong that Rashid wasn't bowling early in the day. After four matches surely the notion that Rashid is likely to prove a serious attacking force on a good pitch should have been put to bed ? If he'd bowled Dawson's early spell the likeliest result would have been India reaching 700 a damn sight earlier...

India played it really well - didn't overreach early in the day , ground England down and cashed in as the bowlers wilted : easy to say Cook/Bayliss should have done something different but the evidence of five matches here is that it didn't much matter what they did the result would be similar. It may even be true that Leach , had he been selected , would have proved far better than the spinners England did bring : and it might equally have seen him absolutely slaughtered . Sometimes it isn't that the captain is making the wrong choices - just that the choices he made didn't work.
Sometimes you just have to say the opponent was too good.

None of this is to say that England shouldn't aspire to do better : I think the young Lions should get as much action in Asian conditions as possible , and perhaps a bit more batting cover should be included in future tours here ...and certainly a seven Test trip with virtually no other cricket in between should never again be agreed to. But for this trip - disastrous though the results have been - they'd do best to write it off and focus on the gains made amid the chaos (Hameed , possibly Jennings - and aye , even Dawson!) ...and make sure Anderson and Broad are looked after for the Tests against SA because the next generation isn't there yet.

Wouldn't be surprised if Cook calls it a day after this...he has looked tired (hardly surprising!) and may have had enough of the armband. If he wants to continue I don't have a problem with it because he's bounced back from bad patches before : he will never go down as one of England's great captains but two Ashes wins and success in both India and SA suggest he isn't anywhere near as bad as some on here seem to think. Root may or may not be better but we won't know that until he gets the job - which might be this coming summer ... or the next.

Hope the team can summon the spirit and skill to bat out the last day. If they do then the horrors of yesterday will fade a lot quicker ...

[rich1uk]

i wouldn't have had dawson in the team or called him up and nothing thats happened over the last few days has changed my mind

he hasn't had a terrible game but i'm not sure when we have just seen india score 759-7 that anyone could say picking a defensive spinner who isn't really a wicket taking threat has been a success. the point AC made above is also very relevant, and this is down to cook not dawson, why was he bowling at the start of a session all the time when all that does is let the batsmen get their eye in again without much pressure.

he scored some valuable runs at #8 but that we are relying on a #8 to get us to a decent score on a very flat pitch highlights the problems with the top 7

on a different subject the most annoying part of the last 4 days was the little spell broad bowled with the third new ball. he showed real aggression, got a wicket and had the batsmen jumping around for a few overs, where the hell was that aggression for the previous 170 overs ?

[bigfluffylemon]

It's a good job this series is nearly over, because I am modding sick of it. No matter what good position England get themselves into, they seem to find a way to squander it. Every time I check the score, it's invariably worse than my already low expectations.

Given that the wicket has been getting slower and slower and has done nothing for bowlers on either side, in theory, England should be able to bat out a comfortable draw. They're a good batting line up that goes very deep, and given that there is no hope at all of winning, there is nothing to be gained by playing shots. Look to Pakistan for inspiration, who ground it out against Australia. Just block and leave all day and force them to get you out.

In practice, I think we all know that the collapse will happen, it's just a question of when. I'm going for 2 down by lunch, looking reasonable enough to get everyone's hopes up, then collapse in the afternoon session, 7 or 8 down by tea, and finished off shortly thereafter to lose by an innings and take home yet another ignominious record of the highest first innings total to lose by an innings (477 and concede a lead of nearly 300? It's beyond belief).

[bigfluffylemon]

Wouldn't be surprised if Cook calls it a day after this...he has looked tired (hardly surprising!) and may have had enough of the armband. If he wants to continue I don't have a problem with it because he's bounced back from bad patches before : he will never go down as one of England's great captains but two Ashes wins and success in both India and SA suggest he isn't anywhere near as bad as some on here seem to think. Root may or may not be better but we won't know that until he gets the job - which might be this coming summer ... or the next..

I wouldn't be surprised either, but I think we won't see an announcement immediately. Given the intensity of the last few weeks and the long break now until any more tests, it would be quite out of character for Cook if he didn't go away, have a rest over Christmas and spend some time with his family, and take some time to consider whether he wants to continue as skipper, rather than make any rash decisions.

I suspect that the lure of the Ashes next winter might be enough for him to keep on for a bit longer.

I also suspect that next winter's Ashes will be Anderson's last series.

[alfie]

Rich I do agree about Broad - and the pace men generally. Think a bit more aggressive attack from them (not just in this match) might have been a good idea. Though I'm not the one sweating it out on flat decks in the heat and dust of India

As for Dawson : I am not suggesting he has been revealed as the new Swann. Just that he did his job rather better than the others that have been tried this series. As to having him bowl at the start of a session I can't see any evidence from this series that anyone else would have enjoyed success in his place : they've tried putting the 'attacking" bowlers on early and the result has been India racing away - this time they tried something different ...and of course it didn't work either. Though if they hadn't wasted two reviews the day before...

Not sure Dawson will play many more Tests ; but if he is prepared to work hard with the spin coach I don't think it is out of the question that he develop into one who might be seriously considered. He isn't that old , for a spinner.

[rich1uk]

i doubt we'll hear anything either way for a while, altho cook is the type of character that may just make up his mind to go and not care what anyone else thinks

i think with the ODI focus for the next 6 months, and the home champions trophy, that the last thing the management will want is cook standing down as test captain, root being the obvious successor and then having questions hanging over morgan's position as ODI captain during that period. especially if morgan doesn't have a good start to the year in ODIs.

[rich1uk]

Rich I do agree about Broad - and the pace men generally. Think a bit more aggressive attack from them (not just in this match) might have been a good idea. Though I'm not the one sweating it out on flat decks in the heat and dust of India

As for Dawson : I am not suggesting he has been revealed as the new Swann. Just that he did his job rather better than the others that have been tried this series. As to having him bowl at the start of a session I can't see any evidence from this series that anyone else would have enjoyed success in his place : they've tried putting the 'attacking" bowlers on early and the result has been India racing away - this time they tried something different ...and of course it didn't work either. Though if they hadn't wasted two reviews the day before...

Not sure Dawson will play many more Tests ; but if he is prepared to work hard with the spin coach I don't think it is out of the question that he develop into one who might be seriously considered. He isn't that old , for a spinner.

its not really dawson i am having a go at tbh, its the selection of him and then how he was used by cook. he was bowling at times we needed to be attacking. i'm not sure a guy who has never taken more than 30 wickets in a full FC season in his career is going to develop into a good quality test spinner alfie, no matter how much coaching he gets.

i just think he was a very negative selection and harks back to the days of bits and pieces players, and we put him into a team that already has a few of them.