India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Sat Jul 12, 2025 10:33 am

Arthur Crabtree wrote:Vaughan thinks Archer is a returning all time great, an exceptional talent. He's got 41 Test wickets at 31... in 13 games over six years. Maybe he could have been a good Test bowler, but he's barely played.


There are a lot of people in the English game who value pace over any other skill, and these people rationalise the value of pace on the basis that it is the last weapon to fade when conditions nullify all else. Key for instance talks all the time about pace "buying wickets" in tame conditions where all else fails, and has built the whole team on the premise that we can go out to Australia and bang it in quick if the Kookaburra doesn't swing - because you know, people like Glenn McGrath never existed, or because there is not at all proof slower, more accurate bowlers who bowl a little fuller have been more successful in Asia .. or even the fact that England's own away Ashes bowling performances get worse with increasing bowling speed throughout recent decades.

Sadly, Archer's career should be a parable or what happens to a bowler when you flog him to death just to extract more pace. At Sussex he was never bowling at these speeds, he was a man of accuracy and impeccable line and length, movement of the deck and the air.... and for about 2 years in CC he was as close to unplayable as you could get. The irony is, people like Vaughan will bemoan the loss to English cricket that he hasn't been smashing in half trackers at 93mph for 4 years...

While I mourn the loss of the incredible player who used to turn batsman inside out with accuracy and skills. Archer's talent was being wasted before the injuries.... England forced him to bowl way above his natural capabilities to return figures unbecoming of his talent, then are surprised they broke him to pieces and ruined his career.
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Sat Jul 12, 2025 10:47 am

I sometimes wonder where this fallacy of express pace has come from in the English game, especially in players who are influential or where generally intelligent or successful players or leaders of the game. I dug into some stats that became enlightening - its interesting for instance when you track performances against sheer pace, how a lot of these players who advocate for it being of high value personally struggled against it. Vaughan for instance averaged nothing against Steyn, Lee and Akhtar. He clearly couldn't cope with high pace personally, so irrespective of how his team-mates did, his lasting memory might be "wow, that was hard to bat against".

The most enlightening thing I dug up is bat averages for England players vs Brett Lee. Lee had an abohrrent Ashes record during his career, very few players in Ashes history (if any) have played so many series with such bad performance, and many of these series are during the most lopsided period between the teams in Ashes history. Despite Lee being utterly rubbish vs England in general, who did poorly against him?

Vaughan averaged only 4 runs per dismissal against Lee.
Rob Key averaged 7
Flintoff 9
Graham Thorpe 1
Cook 7
Rampraskash, Trescothick, Collingwood, Strauss all around 20

Which England players from this era went on to become Captains of the side, Batting Coaches of the side, Directors of the National team???? Ah yeah, everyone who struggled against express pace..... And everyone who did well? Not a single one is involved in any coaching/administrative role after. Is it just a case of the players who struggled against pace ending in the most influential roles? It very much appears that the hangover of their own personally inabilities or batting preferences has ended up being the guiding force of our national game and strategy.

Lee never got out previous captains Stewart/Atherton, and Hussain scored runs against him.... interesting when Vaughan became Captain how the late-Fletcher era obsession with reverse swing and pace cranked up a notch.
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Sat Jul 12, 2025 10:59 am

alfie wrote:Think India would want a decent lead having to bat last : although it is possible this pitch will die completely , you'd expect the uneven bounce to make days 4-5 a bit tricky. Ball is 43 overs old so England have work to do to get the other seven wickets , even if the last three are rabbits. Lot depends on how the four pace men (all either possibly weary from successive games ; injury affected to some degree ; or just back in multi-day action with little preparation) come up after yesterday. Not expecting Bashir to run amok - though hopefully he might get a chance in the fourth innings ? For now , I'd settle for reasonable control to let the quicks rotate...


Its a hard pitch to read, and I have no idea what the par score is. It looks a little flat, but the odd ball then misbehaves. And Sundar got one ball to Stokes to spin at right angles out of nowhere, but then the rest of his spell the ball hardly moved an inch. The early 2000s Lords pitches sometimes broke up into deathtraps (Windies test in 2000 as the prime example) late, but mostly I think recent history has shown it flattens out on day 2-3, and in some cases that goes all the way into day 4.

SA test in 2003 for instance became flatter as the game went on, and England scored 400 on day 4 after being bowled out in under 50 overs in the first innings. 2009 AUS test in the Ashes also by memory became very flat, Australia ended up scoring over 400 in the 4th innings in a losing effort.
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Sat Jul 12, 2025 11:18 am

15 minutes into the day, already had one attempt to change the ball and one stoppage for a physio....

Guessing we will get 70 overs in by close
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Sat Jul 12, 2025 11:35 am

Second time this innings that Archer has clearly bowled too many short balls in the over. Rahul ducked under two, and a third was so short it was called a wide.... umpires forgotten the rules?
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Jul 12, 2025 11:50 am

Intimidating pace is probably the most mythic part of the game. Maybe because fear is such a primal emotion. Pacemen are monsters, they hurt you. I'm talking about Lillee and Thomson, the 80s WI pace quartet, Alan Donald, Shoaib Akhtar. Mitch Johnson shattered a pretty decent England XI to the degree that they didn't want to go out and face him.

Not sure there is that sort of 98mph pace in the game anymore. My impression is everyone recognises that isn't sustainable. 88-90mph isn't scary pace, though it might be useful allied with other skills.

But express pace has never been enough. How many players have I heard say Devon Malcolm was the fastest around even back then. WI had pacemen in the 80s who were even faster than the greats, but didn't do much other than leave behind a colourful nickname.
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Jul 12, 2025 11:57 am

Brett Lee had his moments against England, including the TB Test of 05. In the 06-07 whitewash he was dangerous, though Stuart Clark was the main wicket taker.
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Arthur Crabtree » Sat Jul 12, 2025 11:58 am

India starting to get on top.
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Sat Jul 12, 2025 12:12 pm

Another 7-8 minute drinks break. Absolutely embarrassing. The umpires decided to call out the box of balls and change the ball just as everyone was finished their drinks, and then the first four balls in the box didn't fit through the hole... WHY THE HELL ARE THEY IN THE BOX IF THEY ARE NOT UP TO STANDARDS!!!!!

Almost like they are trying to waste time. Its just unacceptable
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Durhamfootman » Sat Jul 12, 2025 12:36 pm

India merrily bobbling along at 4 an over

nothing to see here, presumably
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Sat Jul 12, 2025 12:37 pm

Another stoppage for Pant's hand.
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby Durhamfootman » Sat Jul 12, 2025 12:37 pm

I'm sure a lot of these ball changes are just born out of desperation. It's become a default position if a side hasn't taken a wicket for 10 overs
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Sat Jul 12, 2025 12:43 pm

Stokes at least is causing Pant some big issues with the short ball in the last couple of overs. Pant has aired a few hooks that could easily have gone anywhere. Good bowling from Ben... he's been consistently England's most threatening bowler this summer..

Bashir comes in, and Pant instantly tucks into the buffet.... only danger in that ball is to the historic pavilion.
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Sat Jul 12, 2025 12:57 pm

Pant falls for the trap from Stokes bouncer again, this time it flies to Crawley on the boundary edge who catches the ball, but its impossible for him to keep in bounds. Crawley sensibly throws it away as he falls to prevent 6.... can't call it a drop, he did the best he could there.

Pant needs to start ducking these balls, he's going to get himself out
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Re: India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

Postby sussexpob » Sat Jul 12, 2025 1:03 pm

Pant has run himself out trying to get Rahul his 100 before lunch... what an absolute prat.

Took on Ben Stokes, was always gone on a direct hit... Stokes obliges. The throw is spot on perfect, excellent fielding.... but on a flat deck just before lunch, I just cant understand why he's took that on
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