India tour of Eng, June 20 - Aug 4

[Arthur Crabtree]

He's supposed to have cramp. From the highlights, he was still limping a bit when he came back on.

[bigfluffylemon]

Huge congrats to Joe. Easily the best England bat of my lifetime, and one of the all-time greats.

Where he stands on the England all-time list is an interesting question. Most of England's highest-regarded and averaging batsmen were pre-war of 1950s: Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Barrington, Hammond, Compton. Joe averages less than them, but started his career 50-90 years later than they did. It's an impossible comparison.

England have surely batted away India's remaining hope of winning the series. I can see the logic of batting long and not declaring last night - the general consensus seems to be that the pitch is going to break up on days 4 and 5. So bat once and bat big, then give India the task of seeing out 4 sessions or so after 3 days in the field and in the toughest batting conditions.

[alfie]

Huge congrats to Joe. Easily the best England bat of my lifetime, and one of the all-time greats.

Where he stands on the England all-time list is an interesting question. Most of England's highest-regarded and averaging batsmen were pre-war of 1950s: Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Barrington, Hammond, Compton. Joe averages less than them, but started his career 50-90 years later than they did. It's an impossible comparison.

England have surely batted away India's remaining hope of winning the series. I can see the logic of batting long and not declaring last night - the general consensus seems to be that the pitch is going to break up on days 4 and 5. So bat once and bat big, then give India the task of seeing out 4 sessions or so after 3 days in the field and in the toughest batting conditions.

It is. Fun to compare , of course ; but the myriad differences between eras make the task meaningless. Best to just appreciate Root for what he is , I reckon. One of the very best at his trade...and this series is further emphasising that greatness.

Enough happening in the pitch now to suggest England already have enough - or will after they thrash a few more this morning : will just need to get enough time free from weather delays to take this one. But I suppose given the ups and downs of this series it may be that India turn up with the bat to make it a real fight . Been a fascinating watch and more of the same to come perhaps...

[Arthur Crabtree]

Surprised the commentators were still calling this a 'flat pitch' even towards the close of play. After we'd seen variable bounce, including one shooter which castled Woakes, and several deliveries which turned sharply and bounced. It looks like England have got away with a bad decision at the toss, but won't want to be chasing 150+. Though they'd have to bowl very badly for India to get that many.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Boycott territory here, but it fills me with horror to think of those old time players batting without helmets. As late as the end of the 70s.

And I've not even mentioned uncovered pitches...!

[Arthur Crabtree]

Ton up for Gentle Ben. First for two years.

Most of the rain seems to have vanished from the forecast.

[andy]

Wheels coming off badly for India overthrows with jurel not even looking at the ball...lead past 250....gotta declare before lunch surely

[Arthur Crabtree]

I was thinking declare at lunch. Now the weather has cleared up, what's the hurry?

[Arthur Crabtree]

Anyway, Stokes is out. Archer won't last long.

[bigfluffylemon]

Woakes 2 in 2 before lunch

Could be all over today.

[Arthur Crabtree]

Woakes gets a modicum of luck at last...

Commentators keep saying this is a young India team, but it's really not. The players range from 23 to 36. The attack is experienced apart from Kamboj, but he's 24 which isn't young for a debuting pace bowler. Bumrah, Siraj and Jadeja are in their 30s. Average age is 28. Some of the team hasn't played in England much, but their age isn't a factor.

[sussexpob]

Where he stands on the England all-time list is an interesting question. Most of England's highest-regarded and averaging batsmen were pre-war of 1950s: Hobbs, Sutcliffe, Hutton, Barrington, Hammond, Compton. Joe averages less than them, but started his career 50-90 years later than they did. It's an impossible comparison

If you exclude the captains/leadership roles that the MCC picked based on a persons standing rather than run scoring ability, there are hardly any English bats who fail in the period post 1910 to 1948. England had nearly 25 players who averaged 45 or more, and the sheer glut of run scoring can be demonstrated by players like Legge who averaged 50 over a series in tests, and a year later have to retire because a temporary blip in form meant he couldn't even get a second XI game at Kent. Around the pre-WWI period the crackdown on professional players took hold, which disproportionately hit bowlers more as gentleman became elegant bats, the plebs did the bowling. Australia for instance before the 1911-12 tri-series lost all their bowling attack when the cricket boards merged and changed the revenue sharing rules, meaning working class players simply couldn't play as they didnt earn. This was made worse by rules stopping people playing for sides outside their own county (explicitly put in place to stop professional players) and as a result of total economic meltdown after WWI, made it almost impossible for working class players to play as they simply couldnt afford not to work.

Its debatable whether any of these generational greats even played against anywhere near the best bowlers of their era, and there is a large body of evidence to suggest club cricket standards in some leagues was higher than test cricket. Jack Hobbs for instance played the WWI years at Idle in the Bradford league - 3 of the 4 years in the league he did badly, which lead to a semi-scandal about how such a world class talent could be so poor, especially with the fanfare and cash he was being paid to play. Hobbs said in later life that it was the pressure to score with sexy shots, but he wasn't the only one. Paynter also did poorly in WWII playing in the same league. Len Hutton never averaged more than 40 a season for Pudsey, and had seasons where he averaged in the 20s.... he beat the world test record the year after his best club year, averaging double in tests what he did in clubs.

There are countless examples of players being overlooked on class. AS Kennedy probably stands out - he took 30 wickets at 19 in his first test tour, followed it up with 10/37 in the players v gentleman showpiece game the following year, then never got picked again for reasons no one ever worked out. Smailes played one test, took 2/34 in 28 overs, and never played again - in 1948 he played against the Invincibles in a tour match and utterly annihilated the Australian batting line up.... Australia scored 160/16 in the game. Keith Miller, who on the same tour gave away his wicket on purpose at protest to his side trying too hard against an Essex attack of such pathetic quality he thought it outside the spirit of the game for Australia to even try to play proper against them, was left bemused as to why Smailes, who was playing his last ever FC game, had never been picked for more games.... ah you guessed it, a professional player from an undistinguished background. Charlie Parker is another off the top of my head.

Worth noting England picked Lord Tennyson 9 times in the same period - a man who was a specialist bat who came in at 10 or 11, but who the title gives you the clue - he was an aristocrat, so that didn't matter. Bill Wyatt played way too many times but had friends in higher places. Frank Woolly was nowhere near the team but in WWI ended up being an assistant to a knighted Admiral on a Royal Navy flagship, said Admiral best friends with Plum Warner.... that was enough to get him 40 tests. Woolly failed military tests on health grounds and like Hobbs was playing in the Bradford League, and like Hobbs, didn't score anywhere near as many runs against club sides as he did counties or test sides.

If you ever read Bradman's story too, its amazing how even after it was clear he was special, how close he came to being forced out of the Australia team. He originally took a job as a reporter to pay his way, but the cricket board in Australia eventually told he could not report on games he played in, as he had to be amateur. He ended being sponsored with a job in a sports shop. There was a period Bradman even quit cricket to start a tennis career for money reasons.

People always wonder how Bradman could ever average THAT much. Well, its no coincidence. This era really should be struck from test records, because the supremacy of Amateurism rendered the quality of play below the highest standard. Its no surprise most batting records come in this time, or why the two biggest test teams have their respective all time best statistical players from it..... they were playing against the worst bowlers in history by a long distance.

[meninblue]

Did not have any expectations from this Indian team in this test series. Actually I am surprised, we won one test. Glad I did not watch more than 3 hours in total off the 4 tests played in this series.


Rahul and Shubman have played lot of test matches but they need flat wickets to score on. Jadeja is useless bowler in England conditions, many Indians who have watched him bowl overseas know this. He is in team because he can bat and provide few runs to a lineup which has ordinary test class batsmen. The bowling attack has also struggled. Jasprit Bumrah is struggling and picking matches to not reach the workload point where he will get injured. Siraj with all experience isn't that good. Same average players turning up again and again after years and years of cricket and expecting result to be different.

India team does not has test class batsmen apart from Yashasvi Jaiswal. Hope he does not declines and he is the only real hope imo.

KL and Shubman will need flat wickets and perform in one series, secure their spot and then flop in others. Their test career has been like this. In fact Shubman had to be kept away from new ball by batting down at 4 as soon as he got captaincy and needed flat wickets to score.


There is a lack of quality test batters in India and it is just not a new phenomenon. Have been seeing this for last 10 years. Nobody of the likes of Sehwag, Sachin, Rahul and VVS. It is really a waste of time to watch the test because only Yashasvi and Jasprit deserve a place in this test squad. The commentators will ensure that people watch this mediocre batsmen because BCCI has probably told them to hype these mediocre batsmen and that the brand of Indian Test Cricket somehow keeps fans interested. It is their business and understandable that they are trying to keep it going. There is also a sizeable population who have started watching cricket this year or two and are not aware of the failures of so many batsmen and bowlers in this team over past few years and in certain conditions. Enough number of gullible Indian fans to market this bunch as superstars. The advertisements showing opponent team look as minnows are very cringeworthy. Show some respect to opponent team. This fake agression and arrogance without any core skills is getting exposed so frequently. I had never thought before that I won't be tempted to watch a test match. Too much mediocrity and hardly few moments of brilliance. That's about it.

Fab 4 were brilliant. Not watching an entire test series that too a series of 5 or even a test eas unthinkabke back then. Then the count of players and tenure of success in tests declined tremedously.
Virat was great for 5 years and flopped miserably in second half of career. Chet was great for 2 to 3 years. Ajinkya Rahane was outstanding in patches in overseas series but he lacked a game against spin. Yashasvi has had 2 good years and if he declines then the trend is going to be worse.


Although I have not watched Joe Root in this series I am glad that he is putting up scores which he deserves.

England should be looking to win this by an innings.

Only the T20i team of India is good and it is worth taking time to watch them.

[Arthur Crabtree]

I thought India competed really well until yesterday. Up to that point, Rahul, Gill, Pant, Siraj and Bumrah were having good series. Jadeja sort of unbalances the side, as his bonus runs are negated by his unthreatening bowling (in these conditions), but he's scored heavily. Sundar has chipped in and Deep has been excellent. Jaiswal is class. Don't think they have become epochally bad after a day of struggle. This game isn't even over yet. I doubt they'll dig themselves out of this situation, but they have an opportunity...

[Arthur Crabtree]

India's session!